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Thread: Fi 101

  1. #61
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Make sure they understand that you want their point of view on something for your own benefit/use and that you are not going to judge them based on it. And then thank them and tell them you really appreciate their feedback.
    I agree.

  2. #62
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Make sure they understand that you want their point of view on something for your own benefit/use and that you are not going to judge them based on it. And then thank them and tell them you really appreciate their feedback.
    Thank you for commenting. I appreciate the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Yup, remove potential judgement. Most of us value the connection we have with you over some silly topic such as a movie. If you can indicate that you won't shoot a person for having another opinion, that will do a lot already. *points at feedback rules*

    Try listing not only what you thought was bad, but also the good points of the movie, showing that you're not just tearing it down just for the heck of it, but also are willing to make a balanced judgement.

    The thing is..if you are to judge a movie that harshly and completley trash it, I make a mental note, especially if I don't know you that well yet. You're that harsh on a movie already? Makes me wonder how you'll think of me. How you focus on the flaws instead of the positives. Makes me feel uncomfortable to be near you, coz it means that my flaws will always come first in your opinion, and you won't like me. Afterall, it's not like you were able to enjoy the movie either. This is a subconscious process btw, that gets triggered only after observing this behavior, indicating a pattern. I reserve these kinda conclusions for when I'm absolutely sure as I like toi give people the benefit of the doubt.

    As for my reaction to your movie-rant, I personally will automatically play devils advocate, if I feel comfortable with you. You say you hated the movie for this and this and this reason? I'll agree with you on those points but automatically list the things I found really good, in essence trying to redeem the movie for you. Why? Coz I have a need to value everyone and this movie was made by someone who put a lot of effort in this probably. I consider it cheap to tear someone elses work down without presenting your own to be criticized. Therefore I will always want you to show some appreciation for someone at least trying what you didn't even dare to go near.
    Ahh...this is the connection that I wasn't able to make before. Thanks for explaining.

    From my perspective I wouldn't assume that being critical of a movie is the same as being critical of a person. However, I can see how I could be intimidating to a person who would associate the two. The people who know me well say I'm totally non-judgemental, and I if anything I think too highly of other people. On the other hand I'm very critical of "things": organizations, artistic pieces, gizmos around my house, etc.... I don't see that as being critical of people, but I can see how an NFP would.

    I'm not sure if that works exactly the same with an SFP though. I tend to have the hardest time communicating with the ISFP's I know, and I don't think it is exactly the same type of thing going on with an ISFP. Well I don't think they'd expect something to be talked up to be "fair". However I think they are worried that I might be judging them. That part I think is the same.

    Thanks again for the input.
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  3. #63
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The thing is..if you are to judge a movie that harshly and completley trash it, I make a mental note, especially if I don't know you that well yet. You're that harsh on a movie already? Makes me wonder how you'll think of me. How you focus on the flaws instead of the positives. Makes me feel uncomfortable to be near you, coz it means that my flaws will always come first in your opinion, and you won't like me. Afterall, it's not like you were able to enjoy the movie either. This is a subconscious process btw, that gets triggered only after observing this behavior, indicating a pattern. I reserve these kinda conclusions for when I'm absolutely sure as I like toi give people the benefit of the doubt.
    Oh, wow. This is so foreign to my way of thinking!! Like Liquid Laser, talking about things - movies, art, buildings, policies, institutions - is a totally separate arena for me than talking of people. My judging a movie harshly IS my opinion...and I recognize everyone else has the right to theirs. Opinions are subjective after all. It has never occurred to me that people might take something like my opinion on a movie or something like that, and translate that to how I might think of a person. Interesting, though.

    As for my reaction to your movie-rant, I personally will automatically play devils advocate, if I feel comfortable with you. You say you hated the movie for this and this and this reason? I'll agree with you on those points but automatically list the things I found really good, in essence trying to redeem the movie for you. Why? Coz I have a need to value everyone and this movie was made by someone who put a lot of effort in this probably. I consider it cheap to tear someone elses work down without presenting your own to be criticized. Therefore I will always want you to show some appreciation for someone at least trying what you didn't even dare to go near.
    Huh. I guess, again, I don't personalize it as much. Someone made a movie, yes, and someone put their time/effort into it and it meant a lot to that person. But that person surely recognizes that the fact HE values his work doesn't entitle him to having other people value it, right? I mean, that's part of life...you put a product of yours out there - whether it be something you created, or whether that product is YOU, as an individual - and it's rather a given that it won't be viewed favorably by all, and others have just as much right to dislike the product as you have for liking it.

    Anyway, interesting. Fascinating, really, just because I tend not to view things this way. I don't mean for my words to diminish anything you've said, although it might come across that way...it's just like a whole new world.

    (by the way, I haven't followed this thread, my apologies, I just saw the most recent posts. If/when I have more time, I'll probably browse through the rest. The OP would be good for starters. )
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  4. #64
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    From my perspective I wouldn't assume that being critical of a movie is the same as being critical of a person. However, I can see how I could be intimidating to a person who would associate the two. The people who know me well say I'm totally non-judgemental, and I if anything I think too highly of other people. On the other hand I'm very critical of "things": organizations, artistic pieces, gizmos around my house, etc.... I don't see that as being critical of people, but I can see how an NFP would.
    I think that may have been specific to Amar.

    I, on the other hand, am very critical when it comes to movies, organizations, "things," etc. The way I see it is if you're going to do it at all do it properly. Plus, I'd imagine filmmakers want the viewer to discuss the content and quality of their movies. If they don't, they probably aren't making anything important/worth seeing anyway.

    But then again, I'm sure there're things that I admire and others are critical about that I may feel like theyre being overly judgmental about. It depends on the values of that particular NFP.

  5. #65
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, these days I don't work that way anymore. But that's coz I learned that others didn't view things that way. That took me coming here, to realize that. Also, if I know you well, and you criticize stuff that harshly, it may bother me yes, coz you're tearing down someone elses work while not contributing yourself, but I'll shrug it off, coz I know how you work and understand somewhat where you come from. That means I won't get insecure like that about 'us'.

    Also, doing the criticizing thing is fine, as long as you do show appreciation on occasion as well. It's the mindset that bothers me. It tells me that your outlook on life is likely to be the 'half-empty glass' instead of the 'half-full' one. And if you're this negative about everything, it's draining on me. I don't have a need for that to be near me. Especially coz I know you're unlikely to be interested in doing something about it, nor should I force you to want to. But no offense, that to me is emotional energy I could be using elsewhere. If I make an effort to tell you the good things about the movie, and you refuse to acknowledge them and trash it some more and this is typically what you do with everything, I'm going to roll my eyes at you and stay away from you. I might still like you, but you're too draining to me and I have to bite my tongue too much in order not to get sucked in by that kind of draining negativity. Not fun.

    Edit: I too judge and conclude whether a movie is for me or not. And I will tell you if I don't like it. But I'll also add something that shows that although it might not have been my kind of movie, I can see it appealing to others. If you loved the movie and I rolled my eyes at it, I'll tease you about how lame you are etc, but ultimately, I'll respect your opinion. I'm acutely aware that I'm just one person and others may appreciate what I consider trash. And I consider it incredibly arrogant to fully trash something that someone else might've loved. Who am I to say what is trash and what isn't? I do admit that this attitude has most likely been heavily influenced by the way I grew up as well as the group of friends I'm part of. So take it with a grain of salt.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Don't get me wrong, these days I don't work that way anymore. But that's coz I learned that others didn't view things that way. That took me coming here, to realize that. Also, if I know you well, and you criticize stuff that harshly, it may bother me yes, coz you're tearing down someone elses work while not contributing yourself, but I'll shrug it off, coz I know how you work and understand somewhat where you come from. That means I won't get insecure like that about 'us'.

    Also, doing the criticizing thing is fine, as long as you do show appreciation on occasion as well. It's the mindset that bothers me. It tells me that your outlook on life is likely to be the 'half-empty glass' instead of the 'half-full' one. And if you're this negative about everything, it's draining on me. I don't have a need for that to be near me. Especially coz I know you're unlikely to be interested in doing something about it, nor should I force you to want to. But no offense, that to me is emotional energy I could be using elsewhere. If I make an effort to tell you the good things about the movie, and you refuse to acknowledge them and trash it some more and this is typically what you do with everything, I'm going to roll my eyes at you and stay away from you. I might still like you, but you're too draining to me and I have to bite my tongue too much in order not to get sucked in by that kind of draining negativity. Not fun.
    I'm with Amar on this one. Its the attitude from which criticizing arises that I find concerning, particularly because if a person applies such an attitude towards one thing they are probably going to display it towards other things as well. Which isn't to say that a person can't criticize, but I would suggest being very careful in your choice of words and being very clear about what you it is that you mean.

  7. #67
    Member LavaLucy's Avatar
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    I've found this thread really interesting and just wanted to add a bit about fi users I know.

    Talking about INFP managers, our library manager is INFP and I think she does a fine job. She is open to everyone's input and she really cares about individual patrons. When she is off-putting it is probably more my problem than hers. She does this thing where when you ask a question there is a long gap where she is thinking. Or maybe a comment and she stares ahead at you blankly for what seems like a very long time! before she answers. But I've adjusted so now I just stare back and wait or not wait and walk off. She also takes me very seriously when I am almost always half joking or exaggerating. The only work related issue I have with her is she can't give me a yes no answer. I'm trying to ditch responsibilty to make a decision and she just won't let me I tell you! She is caring towards the staff and gave us all chocolates at christmas.

    Two of my best friends are INFP and ISFP. They don't feel very similar to me. But I can see how they both have these specific values and privacy values that you can't touch. Particually the ISFP when questioned on such won't explain why she feels intensly about something she just does and if I don't understand too bad for me.

  8. #68

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    I normally don't get annoyed with people unless I see ill intent, or I feel really restricted. If I just sat through an agonising attempt at art, I'm not going to feel I owe the person who made it anything. "Why was this produced?" is a more common first thought. Also if I can see a reason to make an exception, I normally make it. Which is useful, because with Ne I normally see one .

    In most arguments I use a personal approach but the person is rarely the target of hatred. I attack concepts. The problem is that I sometimes attack concepts by describing the influence the person is having on the situation. An NFP might see this as just information to consider, whereas another type can see this as an attack on what they are. I also spend a lot of time fighting on their side in an argument. The target is almost always mutual ground and resolve.
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  9. #69

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    I'd also say, once you know an ENFP for a while you will see the signs they give when really annoyed. It is actually a rare occurrence. I have no one on here who I'd even consider putting on an ignore list or hating. If I become really direct, assertive, rational, too honest and uncompromising, then take a step back or figure out what is up. Otherwise a little annoyance can be anything from frustration to boredom and disinterest. And quietness can be anything, it doesn't even mean we are annoyed.
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  10. #70
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Thank you for commenting. I appreciate the feedback.
    You're learning fast
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