[Fi] Fi 101

[Dali]

...I appreciate the input of all my fellow NFPs of course...

Oook.

*slams door as he leaves thread*

 

[Amargith]

Oook.

*slams door as he leaves thread*

LOL, and of course my SFP siblings..I initially didn't include this because I'm aware that NFP and SFP Fi is bound to be very different. But it's proven quite interesting to see the difference, so don't leave

 

[the state i am in]

i really like this thread. it's given me many new perspectives to consider.

Damn, Kalach, you quoted the one sentence I wanted to change

Yes, I do believe NFPs act like cataclysts and NFJs as...well almost, herders and keepers. We both guide and solve in our own way. They'll provide workable fixes to keep things going smooth, sort out stuff on the fly, to keep the work going, and guide people around big issues to make sure they don't get sucked into it, to keep them safe.

Me, personally, I'll guide you through the big issues instead of around and get to the bottom of them with you, so you can solve it yourself. So you have the tools to deal with it if it ever would occur again. Or, for that matter, so you can make sure it doesn't happen again. To show you that mirror inside so you can see who you are and hopefully discover all that you can be.

i see this differently. we (NiFe) see the shape of the conflict based on plotting the landmarks, whereas you have something worked out that you find recognizable in the situation. neither of us can fucking hand someone an envelope with all of our Ni or Fi currency in it. you can't communicate the whole of what you see/know. we try to construct questions, probe, explore, allow articulations to emerge thru dialogue. you give people a space where they feel the traditional associations/meanings/value judgments are lifted, to be free of judgment, etc. it's very cathartic. you're very skillful at anticipating, merging with, and navigating emotions, you have a lot of tools and tricks and knowledge at maneuvering around, a lot of experience. i don't have that at all, i try to show people new ways of seeing the problem, new ways of seeing, expanding their field of vision, massaging their contradictions, tensions, language traps, etc. an attempt to reveal what is there, to clear away noise, etc.

Fi feels compelled to deal with what it sees as real problems, which are its own biggest problems. in that arena, it is at its most skilled. same as Fe, but we're looking at it in a different way (altho both infx types are the withdrawing types of e4, e5, and e9, so their projects are similar). Fe (nfjs) master a way of seeing the world/future, Fi (nfps) master a way of merging with experience to know the world.


a question: Fi and Ti absorb/create truths in various forms. they are considered internal reasoning processes. they get information from an extroverted perceiving function and synthesize, test, simulate, develop truth. they catalogue all their experience and determine, define, and discover its value/truth. T is defined as logical, linear, direct, causal, and F as implicit, vague, holistic, circular. what is Fi reasoning like? where does it relate to language? what is the difference for Jung between thinking and feeling? a head/heart thing (which sounds more like the enneagram)? what part of you feel likes you KNOW? what does knowing feel like? when cataloging experience, when knowing, how much Si do you detect? how does experience turn into Fi? Si is more vivid when Fi is more intense, which means correlates with more depth, more advanced Fi judgment, a bigger fucking problem, more complex concentrated committed attention?

 

[Poki]

i really like this thread. it's given me many new perspectives to consider.



i see this differently. we (NiFe) see the shape of the conflict based on plotting the landmarks, whereas you have something worked out that you find recognizable in the situation. neither of us can fucking hand someone an envelope with all of our Ni or Fi currency in it. you can't communicate the whole of what you see/know. we try to construct questions, probe, explore, allow articulations to emerge thru dialogue. you give people a space where they feel the traditional associations/meanings/value judgments are lifted, to be free of judgment, etc. it's very cathartic. you're very skillful at anticipating, merging with, and navigating emotions, you have a lot of tools and tricks and knowledge at maneuvering around, a lot of experience. i don't have that at all, i try to show people new ways of seeing the problem, new ways of seeing, expanding their field of vision, massaging their contradictions, tensions, language traps, etc. an attempt to reveal what is there, to clear away noise, etc.

Fi feels compelled to deal with what it sees as real problems, which are its own biggest problems. in that arena, it is at its most skilled. same as Fe, but we're looking at it in a different way (altho both infx types are the withdrawing types of e4, e5, and e9, so their projects are similar). Fe (nfjs) master a way of seeing the world/future, Fi (nfps) master a way of merging with experience to know the world.


a question: Fi and Ti absorb/create truths in various forms. they are considered internal reasoning processes. they get information from an extroverted perceiving function and synthesize, test, simulate, develop truth. they catalogue all their experience and determine, define, and discover its value/truth. T is defined as logical, linear, direct, causal, and F as implicit, vague, holistic, circular. what is Fi reasoning like? where does it relate to language? what is the difference for Jung between thinking and feeling? a head/heart thing (which sounds more like the enneagram)? what part of you feel likes you KNOW? what does knowing feel like? when cataloging experience, when knowing, how much Si do you detect? how does experience turn into Fi? Si is more vivid when Fi is more intense, which means correlates with more depth, more advanced Fi judgment, a bigger fucking problem, more complex concentrated committed attention?

I couldnt tell you how much I get stuck in this circular pattern trying to analyze feelings using Ti. Its like I cause you to...which causes me to...which causes you to...which causes me to... Ok, one of us is gonna have to change, or you could enjoy the cause and affect and be like, ok maybe 5 more minutes in this cycle. Ti does not work with analyzing this stuff and must revert to Fe.

 

[cascadeco]

i see this differently. we (NiFe) see the shape of the conflict based on plotting the landmarks, whereas you have something worked out that you find recognizable in the situation. neither of us can fucking hand someone an envelope with all of our Ni or Fi currency in it. you can't communicate the whole of what you see/know. we try to construct questions, probe, explore, allow articulations to emerge thru dialogue. you give people a space where they feel the traditional associations/meanings/value judgments are lifted, to be free of judgment, etc. it's very cathartic. you're very skillful at anticipating, merging with, and navigating emotions, you have a lot of tools and tricks and knowledge at maneuvering around, a lot of experience. i don't have that at all, i try to show people new ways of seeing the problem, new ways of seeing, expanding their field of vision, massaging their contradictions, tensions, language traps, etc. an attempt to reveal what is there, to clear away noise, etc.

Ooh..I really relate to the bolded, what you've written re. NiFe. Thanks for verbalizing this. NiFe showing new ways of seeing things, and unraveling the stuff that might be causing said emotion, as contrasted with Fi concentrating on and being more proficient with the emotional content/realm itself.

 

[Dali]

LOL, and of course my SFP siblings..I initially didn't include this because I'm aware that NFP and SFP Fi is bound to be very different. But it's proven quite interesting to see the difference, so don't leave

Well, it would be criminal to deny you my penetrating insight.

Lemme read and I'll be back to comment... sometime. *b*tchslaps his P*

 

[sculpting]

The (Te/Fi) idea behind it, that people work to create something because they have a vision or a feeling, and the object created is a product of inner passion, and that passion is respectable even if the product is crap, and so, especially if the product is crap, you contribute to realisation or you waste time...

Very Te/Fi, I think.
The clans may end up united.

My ENTP best friend informed me yesterday that she had resolved the issue. "All that you Te/Fi users need is a box and Te rules given to us with no room for questions allowed. Then you can be contained in your box and all of your Fi defects can be worked out there so that others are not bothered by it since the rest of the world doesnt have "those" problems."

I have tried so hard to understand, flex, bend, and give in to understanding the other. I have tried to become the other to appreciate every opinion, every perspective. I have tolerated selfish, narcisstic, lying, cheating, destructive patterns of behavior from others and excused as it is not my place to judge them or that i need to try and understand them.

So to be told my integrity, my idealism, my loyalty, my teamwork, my strength, my resiliance, my dedication, my willingness to fight for just causes is all a defective flaw that needs to be contained? notice all those "my's"? Fi at it's best.

Whatever the Fi/Te combo is, IT IS ME. I AM NOT DEFECTIVE.

You can call Fi self centered.

Except that Fi isnt just me. I am not an isolated singularity. Fi is everyone I have ever cared for, it spills from me, through me, out into those around me and bends and shapes me to find a way to care for them via Te.

I am Fi. I am Me. I am Them. I will not stand down and let them suffer. I may not be able to comfort them, but I can fight for them.

Ti is an isolated singularity, unique by definition. alone.

 

[Kalach]

I read that wrong. I thought your ENTP was advising, all you need is to box. It sounded reasonable for a moment.


I wonder at this flexy bendy thing. My first reaction is to claim that no one ever truly flexes because you always positively have to approach your own choices with your own mechanisms. So one might take in a lot of information from others, and hold off decision-making... oh wait, "hold off decision-making"... that's it there, isn't it? Flexing is the act of delaying your own choice?

Genuine question: this delay... it does make a difference, doesn't it? It is purposeful and valuable?


(Well, of course it is, or it wouldn't be the persistently and maturely advocated thing it is. *creases brow attempting to accept*)




Fi is a temperature gauge. People get hot or cold on something for a reason. Hell, maybe F itself is a temperature gauge. Sounds reasonable. Feeling exists for a reason. Woohoo, rational proof of feeling's purpose.

 

[William K]

I wonder at this flexy bendy thing. My first reaction is to claim that no one ever truly flexes because you always positively have to approach your own choices with your own mechanisms. So one might take in a lot of information from others, and hold off decision-making... oh wait, "hold off decision-making"... that's it there, isn't it? Flexing is the act of delaying your own choice?

Genuine question: this delay... it does make a difference, doesn't it? It is purposeful and valuable?

(Well, of course it is, or it wouldn't be the persistently and maturely advocated thing it is. *creases brow attempting to accept*)

Fi is a temperature gauge. People get hot or cold on something for a reason. Hell, maybe F itself is a temperature gauge. Sounds reasonable. Feeling exists for a reason. Woohoo, rational proof of feeling's purpose.

I don't know about others, but I usually don't think well on my feet. I'm guessing it's because of my Fi getting input from an uncontrolled Ne. I can't be sure of the decision I make will be the right one without getting all the possibilities that Ne discovers. Sometimes Ne will give me a positive (hot?) reading as the initial reaction, sometimes it will feed me the negative (cold?) reading.

It also depends on how idealistic we are. The more idealistic, the more benefit of the doubt (flex) we give others. Perhaps it is all linked together. An idealistic Fi-dom with low self-esteem will bend so much to other peoples' wishes that he would seem to have no backbone at all...

 

[Amargith]

i really like this thread. it's given me many new perspectives to consider.



i see this differently. we (NiFe) see the shape of the conflict based on plotting the landmarks, whereas you have something worked out that you find recognizable in the situation. neither of us can fucking hand someone an envelope with all of our Ni or Fi currency in it. you can't communicate the whole of what you see/know. we try to construct questions, probe, explore, allow articulations to emerge thru dialogue. you give people a space where they feel the traditional associations/meanings/value judgments are lifted, to be free of judgment, etc. it's very cathartic. you're very skillful at anticipating, merging with, and navigating emotions, you have a lot of tools and tricks and knowledge at maneuvering around, a lot of experience. i don't have that at all, i try to show people new ways of seeing the problem, new ways of seeing, expanding their field of vision, massaging their contradictions, tensions, language traps, etc. an attempt to reveal what is there, to clear away noise, etc.

Fi feels compelled to deal with what it sees as real problems, which are its own biggest problems. in that arena, it is at its most skilled. same as Fe, but we're looking at it in a different way (altho both infx types are the withdrawing types of e4, e5, and e9, so their projects are similar). Fe (nfjs) master a way of seeing the world/future, Fi (nfps) master a way of merging with experience to know the world.


a question: Fi and Ti absorb/create truths in various forms. they are considered internal reasoning processes. they get information from an extroverted perceiving function and synthesize, test, simulate, develop truth. they catalogue all their experience and determine, define, and discover its value/truth. T is defined as logical, linear, direct, causal, and F as implicit, vague, holistic, circular. what is Fi reasoning like? where does it relate to language? what is the difference for Jung between thinking and feeling? a head/heart thing (which sounds more like the enneagram)? what part of you feel likes you KNOW? what does knowing feel like? when cataloging experience, when knowing, how much Si do you detect? how does experience turn into Fi? Si is more vivid when Fi is more intense, which means correlates with more depth, more advanced Fi judgment, a bigger fucking problem, more complex concentrated committed attention?

That was also a very good way of describing the difference yeah

Fi ephiphanies to me come in a sudden burst and a myriad of emotion. That feeling of 'Omg!!!', tightening of the chest, sudden warmth. It's like a puzzle falling into place when suddenly you can see the underlying intention, motivation, whatever it was you were analyzing. When just analyzing without there being any real mysteries, it feels like recognizing and pushing the right buttons to find your way through a maze. Once you understand how everything works, navigating becomes relatively easy, depending on the force of emotions you're dealing with. Complex problems where you still have to find your way and there's a ton of factors playing can feel like your head is about to explode (Ne-overload and not enough room for Fi to process). Writing things down and mulling things over while doing something else often allows for the information in your head to be sorted in the logical way (like solving a riddle or undoing an entire bunch of knots in a ball of yarn). It takes time, resolve, patience and trust that you will get it right, and the willingness to wait for the pieces to fall into place, to wait for the right info to come to you and triggering the correct info. Gaps in the fabric of emotional logic are instantly recognized and straightened out as soon as the right info is at hand. Info is screened for value, relevance, completeness and bias, before plugged in, much like you would not force a puzzle piece in the wrong spot.

I could go on, but let's see if this already makes sense

 

[the state i am in]

the feeling hits us, i imagine, in a similar spot. the heart-center, blah blah etc. when i feel really jacked up on Fe, tho, it feels like my heart is pulling away from me, it's actively listening. it's leaning forward. it's pulling everything from the world around me into it, and most focused on the most intense connection, but at the same time, that like inverse Fi (especially with enfp or any form of GLOWING Fi) gushiness. it's just flowing into and out of me, like the feist song, i feel it all. i feel a little bit lighter and less rooted in the ground, more floating ever so slightly above. weightless. it's just radiating/resonating with harmony, you can feel it warm you up, more color in your mind's eye, gilded things, etc. i'm not glowing internally, i'm absorbing it from around me and refracting it like a prism. it pries me open and i feel more mystical, the spirit of everytihng rushing in, angelic, etc. it makes me think of the wim wenders film wings of desire. that's it. but as both angel and human. which is better.

epiphanies are the greatest thing in the world, but for me they originate in Ni. then comes the tremendous rush (as Fe absorbs it, recognizes it, shifts its awareness of it into the world, listens for it, it starts flowing inward in a huge looping process of connection), the interconnection, the falling into place like dominoes, the free feeling, the sort of huge gushing dam-burst flow of energies restored, moving again, unstagnant, renewed, etc. i feel the whole context, everything comes into focus, and it feels very timeless and mystical, eternal and unending.

 

[sculpting]

NeFi feels infallible and is extremely sensitive to critique. Why?

To answer this question I need to address another question:

NeFi: Once upon a time a friend hurt me. I decided to shut her out and never speak to her again, yet in my mind preserved her essence and would always love her.

Te: There is a logical disconnect.

NeFi: An Fi connection feels like a laser beam shining at that other person, painful to me, yet so full or shining love and devotion. It forces me to mirror what I perceive them to feel-a massive offering on my part. If I cut this person out of my life, how I could I still love them/mirror them/feel them? The Fi connection was severed, thus what am I connecting to?

Te: I am connecting to something in my own mind.

Ne: What is it I am connecting to?
I do not make eye contact or watch the other person the way an EXTP does-I don’t have to.

Te:
I have recreated the person in my mind as a running “simulation” for lack of a better word. I actually connect to that simulation. Fi uses a lot of energy as the simulation is extraordinarily complex. I use it to study the person. As a simulation I can “feed” it different types of inputs and monitor predicted outputs. Thus the ability of an NeFi to predict patterns of behavior. Fi not only mirrors others, it analyzes them via study of generic simulations. Using NeTe we can meta study the person-problem and pick out trends. The accuracy is fairly poor-at least 20% error if not more, and Fi misunderstands Fe.

NeTe: Watch an Fi person-while analyzing with Fi, they have to break eye contact. They cannot observe you and the simulation at the same time. Interestingly I bet Fi gets applied to more problems than just people problems.

(However for an Fi user to watch you and use Fi, would be to merge you into the simulation-it is utterly overwhelming and allows you inside of everything they are-thus really living in that moment second by second with you-in a Ti like fashion -a sign of utmost trust. Perhaps something like an ENTP letting go of logical Ti, taking a plunge into love, knowing it defies Ti reality? Typically an ENFP makes direct eye contact with Te.)
Fi: .

Ne: Damn that’s cool. Awesome! Sometimes you are kinda clever.

Te: Why thank you small ADHD follower of shiny things, go make another connection with your 20% rate of insanity and I shall continue onwards with defective tertiary Te analysis with a 40% error rate.


Ne: Why is Fi sensitive? Why does it hurt so much?

Te: If Fi constructs simulations and runs them as an analytical tool, for NeFi many are likely loaded at any given time. NeFi is particularly tuned to pain in the mirrored perceptions-pain hurts more than pleasure feels good. Fi is pain averse, as it must help those in pain.

Ne: evolution
Te: Evolution likely evolved Fi to be more perceptive to pain than Fe, as the ultimate empathic tool. Somebody has to help the outcasts and fallen, even if not in our best interests. I see their pain, I feel their pain.
Ne: Cortisol/chronicpain/stress/relaxation/meditation/endorphins/warmbuttery Fe rolls/so beautiful feeling.

Te: shut up shiny, back to the original question
Ne: Why is Fi so sensitive, especially NeFi?

Te: Assuming Fi is running simulations of all of those it has Fi connections to, Fi is actually composed of those simulations. To criticize Fi is to criticize those simulations. Fi is me, but Fi really is THEM, a mesh like conglomerate of the “other”.

Te: If you attack those I have an Fi connection to, you will evoke a Te defensive response. If you critique Fi, you are in effect attacking all of them at once. This generates massive logical dissonance in Fi-which is an analytical tool at the end of the day, thus an immediate, yet confused, Te defensive rage. It is extremely guttural and instinctual.

Ne: the symmetry is inherent.

Te: Thus for an ENTP I predict an attack on Ti directly would be akin to an attack on their singular Ne fed Ti identity, and result in an ENTP repulsive shrug of massive, yet confused proportions. Fe attacks via social shunning and rejection. However this is based on a symmetry model, not an internal understanding thus has inherent error.

 

[sculpting]

a question: Fi and Ti absorb/create truths in various forms. they are considered internal reasoning processes. they get information from an extroverted perceiving function and synthesize, test, simulate, develop truth. they catalogue all their experience and determine, define, and discover its value/truth. T is defined as logical, linear, direct, causal, and F as implicit, vague, holistic, circular.

what is Fi reasoning like? where does it relate to language? what is the difference for Jung between thinking and feeling? a head/heart thing (which sounds more like the enneagram)? what part of you feel likes you KNOW? what does knowing feel like? when cataloging experience, when knowing, how much Si do you detect? how does experience turn into Fi? Si is more vivid when Fi is more intense, which means correlates with more depth, more advanced Fi judgment, a bigger fucking problem, more complex concentrated committed attention?

Fi doesnt speak for me. It is like a small child that glows and points.

Si doesnt really seem to work with Fi for me-perhaps by accentuating past experiences?

I like the ideas above.

 

[sculpting]

I wonder at this flexy bendy thing. My first reaction is to claim that no one ever truly flexes because you always positively have to approach your own choices with your own mechanisms. So one might take in a lot of information from others, and hold off decision-making... oh wait, "hold off decision-making"... that's it there, isn't it? Flexing is the act of delaying your own choice?
.

Actually the flexing for an ENFP is likely me adjusting my own internal Te/Fi standards to fit the person I am interacting with-ie acceptance. Accepting them as they are, understanding it is not my place to impose my moral Fi judgments upon them.

This alone sounds judgmental, however recognize I will never, ever, ever met my own standards, thus how can anyone else.