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  1. #1
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Default Fe blindness; Fi shortsightedness

    Despite being Fi dominant, my Fe overrules Fi all the time. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." Ironically, I know this is because my Fi demands it.

    But I have been pondering the difference between the two functions. Mostly thinking of the misapplication of each, hence the post title.

    Fe blindness: interchanging your own needs with the needs of the group. This means that sometimes the group needs become yours, and sometimes, you allow your personal needs to be applied over the group, because you have an agenda you want to fulfill. In other words, you trick yourself into believing you are doing something for the good of the group, but it is really what you WANT. And you violate the needs of the group to do so, all with a pretty veneer applied over top to make it look like the needs of the group are what you are working for. And, YOU can even start to believe it yourself, that you are only doing what is good for the group.

    Fi shortsightedness: you feel your feelings, but you apply them over top of what you perceive from others. Example: let's say you're angry with person X because you've been done wrong, so you allow that anger to colour all of your interactions with person X and thus you lose prized objectivity in your relationship. It takes a great deal of personal power to step back and not allow your own feelings to cover you. Alternatively, you feel others feelings, and you misinterpret them as your own, finding it hard to unweave what you own vs what other people own or are trying to blanket you with.

    Just some thoughts this morning; discuss, refine or disagree if desired.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Despite being Fi dominant, my Fe overrules Fi all the time. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." Ironically, I know this is because my Fi demands it.

    But I have been pondering the difference between the two functions. Mostly thinking of the misapplication of each, hence the post title.

    Fe blindness: interchanging your own needs with the needs of the group. This means that sometimes the group needs become yours, and sometimes, you allow your personal needs to be applied over the group, because you have an agenda you want to fulfill. In other words, you trick yourself into believing you are doing something for the good of the group, but it is really what you WANT. And you violate the needs of the group to do so, all with a pretty veneer applied over top to make it look like the needs of the group are what you are working for. And, YOU can even start to believe it yourself, that you are only doing what is good for the group.

    Fi shortsightedness: you feel your feelings, but you apply them over top of what you perceive from others. Example: let's say you're angry with person X because you've been done wrong, so you allow that anger to colour all of your interactions with person X and thus you lose prized objectivity in your relationship. It takes a great deal of personal power to step back and not allow your own feelings to cover you. Alternatively, you feel others feelings, and you misinterpret them as your own, finding it hard to unweave what you own vs what other people own or are trying to blanket you with.

    Just some thoughts this morning; discuss, refine or disagree if desired.
    I've written this elsewhere, but as a quick recap let me say that:

    Fi: taking personal values, which are often universal, and applying them in a given situation. "Pain is bad, this [dog/person/child/animal/whatever] is in pain therefore I will go help it [provide support, talk, call for help, be soothing, etc], EVEN if my culture/society/group says that we are from different groups that shouldnt deal with each other [wealthy people dont waste their time with poor people for example], or regard for their social status [ie don't care if person in pain is a doctor or a garbage collector].

    Fe: concerned with social well-being, deals with "the most appropriate way to conduct interactions within a society." For example "I personally think this person is a self-centered chauvinistic asshole but they have a socially important job so I will be polite and say 'good morning sir, how are you today?' to them"

    Thats my contrast in a nutshell, but here is shorter one. Fi is concerned about itself and want it wants, but *tends* not to be excessively narcissistic and often serves a s breeding ground for compassion. To others sometimes it seems excessively selfish, and is often hard to detect or understand, hence its frequently being referred to as "invisible". Fe is concerned about what others want, social harmony, and how to acceptably give others what they want. Fe users often can give too much and be taken advantage of by others with less scruples.

  3. #3
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I've written this elsewhere, but as a quick recap let me say that:

    Fi: taking personal values, which are often universal, and applying them in a given situation. "Pain is bad, this [dog/person/child/animal/whatever] is in pain therefore I will go help it [provide support, talk, call for help, be soothing, etc], EVEN if my culture/society/group says that we are from different groups that shouldnt deal with each other [wealthy people dont waste their time with poor people for example], or regard for their social status [ie don't care if person in pain is a doctor or a garbage collector].

    Fe: concerned with social well-being, deals with "the most appropriate way to conduct interactions within a society." For example "I personally think this person is a self-centered chauvinistic asshole but they have a socially important job so I will be polite and say 'good morning sir, how are you today?' to them"

    Thats my contrast in a nutshell, but here is shorter one. Fi is concerned about itself and want it wants, but *tends* not to be excessively narcissistic and often serves a s breeding ground for compassion. To others sometimes it seems excessively selfish, and is often hard to detect or understand, hence its frequently being referred to as "invisible". Fe is concerned about what others want, social harmony, and how to acceptably give others what they want. Fe users often can give too much and be taken advantage of by others with less scruples.
    There's a description of Fe I have read that is basically that Fe is sensitive to 'social currency' and can work with it well. Social currency is something to the effect of, when you greet someone you have given a certain amount of social currency and the other person should respond in kind, and depending on who the person is, they may respond differently, believing that they indeed HAVE payed in kind, even though you dont see it that way. Sort of understanding others by how they 'spend their money.'

    I hope that made sense.
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

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    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    There's a description of Fe I have read that is basically that Fe is sensitive to 'social currency' and can work with it well. Social currency is something to the effect of, when you greet someone you have given a certain amount of social currency and the other person should respond in kind, and depending on who the person is, they may respond differently, believing that they indeed HAVE payed in kind, even though you dont see it that way. Sort of understanding others by how they 'spend their money.'
    That's one general way to look at it.

    To me, it's a system of social interactive rules that communicate your commitments... and the group responds in kind.

    I was thinking alot about it while watching Avatar last week -- Jake got kicked out for "betraying the people" but was automatically given free pass back in because he accessed the Fe cultural network by conquering the toruk, which only the Na'vi's strongest cultural heroes had ever accomplished. By locking into this part of the cultural exchange, any personal feelings about Jake's past actions were swept away in terms of the overall positive currency he had bought by undertaking that risk and proving himself not just victorious but worthy and "aligned with" the culture's heroes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I've written this elsewhere, but as a quick recap let me say that:

    Fi: taking personal values, which are often universal, and applying them in a given situation. "Pain is bad, this [dog/person/child/animal/whatever] is in pain therefore I will go help it [provide support, talk, call for help, be soothing, etc], EVEN if my culture/society/group says that we are from different groups that shouldnt deal with each other [wealthy people dont waste their time with poor people for example], or regard for their social status [ie don't care if person in pain is a doctor or a garbage collector].

    Fe: concerned with social well-being, deals with "the most appropriate way to conduct interactions within a society." For example "I personally think this person is a self-centered chauvinistic asshole but they have a socially important job so I will be polite and say 'good morning sir, how are you today?' to them"
    I am not sure I agree with your examples.

    I am an Fe user but actually see myself far more in your description of Fi. My reasoning would go something like this: "I personally think this person is a self-centered chauvinistic asshole but he is also a human being so he deserves basic respect and if he is in genuine pain basic compassion."

    I would never just be nice to someone because he has a socially important job, I would feel like the most hypocritical asskisser on the face of this earth. If this person is an idiot he deserves general kindness from me for the simple reason that he is a human being and I always start with the assumption that there must be redeeming qualities in even the most annoying person and I am going to be nice to them until they have exhausted all my patience and proven me wrong.

  6. #6
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyward View Post
    There's a description of Fe I have read that is basically that Fe is sensitive to 'social currency' and can work with it well. Social currency is something to the effect of, when you greet someone you have given a certain amount of social currency and the other person should respond in kind, and depending on who the person is, they may respond differently, believing that they indeed HAVE payed in kind, even though you dont see it that way. Sort of understanding others by how they 'spend their money.'

    I hope that made sense.
    I'd agree with that. I think Fe also tends to assume that different relationships also involve different social obligations. If your friend is sick, you go visit them because that's what friends do. If they are graduating, you attend their graduation. If they are getting married, you buy them a wedding gift. If it's just an acquaintance, you don't have to do those things, but of course they are on your Christmas card list (or whatever). It makes for a cozy social system, where each person in a relationship is periodically re-assured that they are important, and people know who they can count on.

    If someone doesn't do those thing, then Fe assumes they are communicating anger or that they don't care. You don't just get to opt out of social rituals obligations. Fe has a memory and makes plans based on those social obligations and currency.

    Fi is much more in the now. You do things because they express your genuine feelings toward someone or your values. You may empathize with someone regardless of their social relationship. If you do something nice for someone, you don't assume they will do something nice for you (and vice versa). If you don't reciprocate (for whatever reason) that doesn't mean you didn't appreciate and value what another did for you. Fi can also under-value social rituals because they seem fake, insincere or lack depth.

    Fe can respond to Fi's behavior as selfishness, since it isn't reciprocating evenly and doesn't meet all the expected social obligations. Fe users can also be puzzled when an Fi-using friend can be so present one minute, and then withdraw socially the next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's one general way to look at it.

    To me, it's a system of social interactive rules that communicate your commitments... and the group responds in kind.

    I was thinking alot about it while watching Avatar last week -- Jake got kicked out for "betraying the people" but was automatically given free pass back in because he accessed the Fe cultural network by conquering the toruk, which only the Na'vi's strongest cultural heroes had ever accomplished. By locking into this part of the cultural exchange, any personal feelings about Jake's past actions were swept away in terms of the overall positive currency he had bought by undertaking that risk and proving himself not just victorious but worthy and "aligned with" the culture's heroes.
    I agree... in a way he cheated and got a lot of Fe cred he didn't earn (that bothered me a little... he didn't really deserve their trust at that point).

    On the other hand, it seems like Jake had to learn a little Fi to get out of his bind. He was stuck between two (or three) conflicting Fe (and Te) networks of obligation. He was a soldier, a researcher and a Na'vi... and each role had conflicting requirements and value-systems. In some sense, he had to figure out the larger universal values to decide what to do. One could argue cynically that he went with the Na'vi because his legs and his hormones were telling him to. One could also argue that those things forced him into being open to a new perspective.

  7. #7
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I think Fe also tends to assume that different relationships also involve different social obligations. If your friend is sick, you go visit them because that's what friends do. If they are graduating, you attend their graduation. If they are getting married, you buy them a wedding gift. If it's just an acquaintance, you don't have to do those things, but of course they are on your Christmas card list (or whatever). It makes for a cozy social system, where each person in a relationship is periodically re-assured that they are important, and people know who they can count on.

    If someone doesn't do those thing, than Fe assumes they are communicating anger or that they don't care. You don't just get to opt out of social rituals obligations. Fe has a memory and makes plans based on those social obligations and currency.

    Fi is much more in the now. You do things because they express your genuine feelings toward someone or your values. You may empathize with someone regardless of their social relationship. If you do something nice for someone, you don't assume they will do something nice for you (and vice versa). If you don't reciprocate (for whatever reason) that doesn't mean you didn't appreciate and value what another did for you. Fi can also under-value social rituals because they seem fake, insincere or lack depth.

    Fe can respond to Fi's behavior as selfishness, since it isn't reciprocating evenly and doesn't meet all the expected social obligations. Fe users can also be puzzled when an Fi-using friend can be so present one minute, and then withdraw socially the next.
    This is all pretty good too.

    What's funny is when I see very Fi people accusing Fe people of "being fake."

    It's very obvious both are doing things for others out of their values, but the rationality behind the two basic types of behavior can confuse or irritate the other.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #8
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Despite being Fi dominant, my Fe overrules Fi all the time. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one." Ironically, I know this is because my Fi demands it.
    Bolded part = why this is not really Fe. If your so-called "Fe use" is directly motivated by a more important Fi value, then it's just Fi.

    It's a mistake in reasoning to assume, "I did something for the group's benefit, therefore I must have used Fe."

    Different functions can lead to the same actions; the key here is the underlying motivation. No single action is associated exclusively with one function. If you're not doing Fe things for Fe's sake alone, it's still just another manifestation of Fi [and/or some other function(s).]
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #9
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I always see Fi as being concerned with individuals. If people have internal peace, then they will exude that feeling and it will color their interactions and motives, resulting in more external harmony, and the world will be closer to the ideal.

    I think Fi can seem self-absorbed to Fe because it's so concerned with its individual self and authenticity, and it can ignore group standards, but that concern is extended to other individuals in many situations (often why we root for the underdog, the outcast, the misunderstood). In that sense, yes, we are "short-sighted", because we cannot skip past the internal feeling - it must be dealt with first before we can step outside ourselves and gain perspective.

    I see Fe as being concerned with group harmony. If people get along and things run smoothly between them, then that will affect how they feel inside for the better, creating internal peace that further supports external peace, and the world will be closer to the ideal.

    I think Fe can start with promoting the peace externally before it is felt internally, and that seems to "fake" to Fi - Fe can be "fake it until it's real" from my Fi perspective. In that sense, yes, they are "blind", because they cannot see the trees for the forest - individual feelings can get lost while promoting group needs, including the Fe's own personal feelings/needs.

    So I see Fe and Fi as having similar goals, but working from opposite ends. I think in best situation, they are extremely complementary, but it requires an ability to understand that the other is coming from a different direction, and hey, you gotta meet each other in the middle. It's something like a language barrier sometimes - things can get lost in translation, but if it's overcome, then a lot of good can be accomplished.

    * This is all generalizing to express my viewpoint, because I do realize that no one is entirely one way or the other. I'm also referring to Fi and Fe primarily in NFs, because I think SF motivations are less "ideal oriented" - they seem more about practical and immediate results for harmonious feelings/relationships. From that perspective, NFs can seem blind and SFs can seem short-sighted, but for different reasons.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #10
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Wow, SW.

    You're really aversed to Fi, aren't you?

    I'm sorry.



    EDIT: Thumbs up for the OA post above me.

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