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[Fi] Fe blindness; Fi shortsightedness

onemoretime

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Fi does pick up on people's emotions, at least IRL. I can feel people's hostility bouncing off of them. When I was with my ex, sometimes I could literally feel him standing behind me or entering a room. I think trying to do that on the Internet might be a mistake, of course.

Once again, I really don't think this is Fi, because I do the same thing. This is more Ne related... you pick up on small, unconscious cues, and from them instantaneously build an understanding of the situation. In fact, it might be something all extraverted Perceivers do.
 

Lauren Ashley

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J Fe users and P Fe users are going to be different in their sense of feeling as stable and authoritative, aren't they? Are they?

Same difference for J/P Fi, the J's are gong to be more into using personal feeling as motive and the P users are going to allow perception the privilege of guiding them. So TJs dismiss, FPs empathise, FJ's guide, and TPs... em, tell you what they think?

The issue with this is that FJs can and do empathize and FPs can and do guide. Even on this forum that is evident. I don't see such an absolute dividing line in those aspects.
 

Totenkindly

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Threads like this get pretty confusing when I see some descriptions suggested for Fi or Fe embodied by people IRL of the other persuasion (Fe or Fi). What a headache.
 

Scott N Denver

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I said I was leaving but I guess not!



I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape. And here's a mercenary thought: I'd find a way to capitalize on this ability and harness it into something lucrative.

I know for me, my empathy is bound to situations I've personally experienced. When someone says they have/had a family member who has cancer and all the effects of that I feel like I can safely say I empathize. When someone speaks of racism and sexism I empathize. I have once before in my life felt like I was going to murder someone. I've seen red before. Whenever my mother's face scrunches up in pain, I feel that to my soul. I've felt anger, love, lust, shame, disgust, happiness, contentedness, etc. so I'm fully aware that if I've felt it I can make a strong connection to how I've felt and the way another person feels/felt.

I admit to not having the ability to automatically know what another person is feeling if I've never felt it or been in a similar situation. I understand that's not exactly what Fis/NFPs are saying, but that's the closest approximation I can wrap my head around at this point. I can ask, I can conjecture, I can speculate, I can watch their behaviors and body language and make educated guesses (which can be wrong!) but I don't know.

Take this for example (and it's kinda melodramatic but bear with me), if I'm some villager in a war torn country and some American volunteer tells me they know exactly what I feel I would hope for them to fall into a dinosaur sized pile of manure. I'd feel insulted. What would they know of my life? The lesser virtue of sympathizing would be more suited in a situation like this. Sometimes it's more appropriate to admit you don't know what a person feels but still feel compassion for them anyway and stand beside them. Maybe you'll come to develop some empathy in a meaningful and more accurate way.

And synarch, I agree; I find it highly PRESUMPTUOUS to even make such a claim although I don't find empathy itself presumptuous.

I like these definitions of empathy although there are many out there and I bolded what I think are the most important parts:
  1. A sense of shared experience, including emotional and physical feelings, with someone or something other than oneself.
  2. The feeling or capacity for awareness, understanding, and sensitivity one experiences when hearing or reading of some event or activity of others, thus imagining the same sensations as that of those actually experiencing them.

If NFPs want to assert that they have a greater capacity for/predisposed to/more concerned with/biologically hardwired to empathy according to the above then OK. It's not a competition and it will reveal itself somehow.

What's interesting to me is why this thread sat here for a couple of days before anyone commented? Maybe people were reluctant to...obviously there's a lot of opinion about this topic anytime it's brought up it typically explodes into this.

But why did it sit here? Maybe that's an indicator of something. Tesla's thread is winding down, people may not have wanted to answer because of that. Maybe people were reluctant to offend FPs? What would that be called? There hasn't been very much FJ comment on this thread and I wonder why that's so as well. Why was the first critical comment in this thread interpreted as an act of aggression?

I believe the best way to get productive discussion about this is to specifically go to individuals who seem capable of calmly discussing this without offense and that in my experience has happened via PMs.

I'm going to have to ask the NFPs I know if this is something they experience though.

This thread sat stationary because peacebaby started it and no one responded. Until me, when I got back from my trip and responded and then, for whatever reasons, the thread started a rollin.

I would like to think and hope that I am one of the NFP's that can talk about Fi without getting all huffy and offended. However, with that said, I'm afraid I'm likely to do a Ken Wilber and just say to anything "yes, thats right and important as far is it goes", "true but partial" as Ken always likes to say, to whatever gets brought up, and hence not really disagreeing with anyone, which for many people leads to no forward motion. Anyways...
 

Lauren Ashley

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Threads like this get pretty confusing when I see some descriptions suggested for Fi or Fe embodied by people IRL of the other persuasion (Fe or Fi). What a headache.

I personally believe that the boundaries between Fi and Fe are not as clear cut as they are made out to be. A lot of what is said about Fe can apply to Fi, and vice versa. Especially when Fe is paired with Ni, and Fi paired with Ne.

:cheese:
 

OrangeAppled

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I've got to say OA, you do make many seemingly hostile and passive-aggressive comments about FJs. I try to not comment on them because I just chock it up to your experience, but you weren't willing to grant the same courtesy to others in these Fi threads. I otherwise think you are a very insightful poster with valuable contributions, but if I had read that thread and saw your comment, I would've asked the same question that protean asked.

As I said in that thread referred to, the vast majority of the commentary I make on FJs and Fe is positive. I've made far more positive comments than negative ones, but I cannot say that for most of the Fi criticizers in this thread. It's something I've noticed for awhile, and I don't think I am being "too sensitive".

I suppose I don't see criticism as valuable if it comes from someone who can only see what is negative, especially if we're discussing a cognitive function, which I think is neutral to begin with. It tells me there is too much personal bias clouding their perspective.
 

Kalach

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The issue with this is that FJs can and do empathize and FPs can and do guide. Even on this forum that is evident. I don't see such an absolute dividing line in those aspects.

You're right, there isn't.

(And see what happens when you use Ti with Ni, an unwillingness to draw hard lines around what the world is... that's left up to Fe... which doesn't show up in the theorising, indeed perhaps doesn't show up at all until later, in the world of things taking place, when someone impinges, and needs to be guided back into place.)
 

Lauren Ashley

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As I said in that thread referred to, the vast majority of the commentary I make on FJs and Fe is positive. I've made far more positive comments than negative ones...

I haven't been on this forum as much as I used to be, but that just is blatantly untrue of what I've read from you. I tend to read certain posters' posts and not much of others, and you are of the former group. Of your posts about FJs and Fe, the majority have been negative and/or passive-aggressively "joking," and clearly disparaging. Some have had some positive notes, but they tend to be added as an afterthought "Fe is this and this, but oh yeah, Fe users are so nice."

I'm not attacking you, but anyone could look through your posts and see this is the case.
 

OrangeAppled

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I hear Fe and "the group/big picture" mentioned often together. But I think every Fe user is different. I personally do best one-on-one and I identify with others on that basis. I don't know if this could be related to Enneagram, but I'm a sx/sp variant... i.e. I have the social instinct last. So social objectives are often not in the forefront of my mind.

Maybe interpersonal and intrapersonal are better terms. One being concerned with the interaction and how it affects the individuals and the other being concerned with the internal feeling of the individuals and how that comes out in the interaction. Obviously, there is not a clear line there either. I just think one works inside to outside and the other outside to inside.


I haven't been on this forum as much as I used to be, but that just is blatantly untrue of what I've read from you. I tend to read certain posters' posts and not much of others, and you are of the former group. Of your posts about FJs and Fe, the majority have been negative and/or passive-aggressively "joking," or clearly disparaging. Some have had some positive, but they tend to be added as an afterthought "Fe is this and this, but oh yeah, Fe users are so nice."

I'm not attacking you, but anyone could look through your posts and see this is the case.

I still disagree, and I don't have a disparaging view of FJs or Fe, a few jokes here & there aside. If people want to look through all of 2000+ my posts, go for it.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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Hi LA! :smile: Spending time on your OTHER forum? Did anyone ever crack that mystery wide open?

Fe/Fi really confuses people huh? I don't really get it. Seems easy to me. I must be missing something.

Just the last few pages on this tome about Fe....uhh!

Fe is what I use to engage with you. I am interested in you. Not because I am socially obligated to be interested in you, but because, if I'm talking to you, I probably genuinely care about you, or am at least genuinely interested in being kind to you. Not for any ulterior motives. I feel your emotions, I see your anxieties as manifested in everything you do and convert it all into how you must be feeling. I listen to you. I feel warm toward you because of all this, and you feel me as warm.

Fi is how I feel about things: Ideas, principles, constructs. What helps me decide how to proceed and in what direction I want to go. It keeps me consistent. Gives me integrity. Gives me boundaries. Helps me keep focused on myself so I don't give everything away.
 

Lauren Ashley

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Maybe interpersonal and intrapersonal are better terms. One being concerned with the interaction and how it affects the individuals and the other being concerned with the internal feeling of the individuals and how that comes out in the interaction. Obviously, there is not a clear line there either. I just think one works inside to outside and the other outside to inside.
Ni's job is to look within, past the surface. So in the case of INFJs (and possibly ENFJs), that description does not work; the INFJ's Fe has to take orders from Ni and is filtered through that lens. It could possibly fit as a stand-alone description of Fe, but no function works in isolation. Thus that description doesn't work for INFJs and their Fe.

I still disagree, and I don't have a disparaging view of FJs or Fe, a few jokes here & there aside. If people want to look through all of 2000+ my posts, go for it.

I'll go through your posts and PM you all the negative and postive posts about Fe and FJs (because I care so much :)). Is that okay with you? I may be wrong on the ratio of positive and negative, but I don't think so.

Hi LA! :smile: Spending time on your OTHER forum? Did anyone ever crack that mystery wide open?
Hey aphrodite. Nope, just been offline. And no one's figured it out. Never will. ;)

Fe/Fi really confuses people huh? I don't really get it. Seems easy to me. I must be missing something.

Just the last few pages on this tome about Fe....uhh!

Fe is what I use to engage with you. I am interested in you. Not because I am socially obligated to be interested in you, but because, if I'm talking to you, I probably genuinely care about you, or am at least genuinely interested in being kind to you. Not for any ulterior motives. I feel your emotions, I see your anxieties as manifested in everything you do and convert it all into how you must be feeling. I listen to you. I feel warm toward you because of all this, and you feel me as warm.

Fi is how I feel about things: Ideas, principles, constructs. What helps me decide how to proceed and in what direction I want to go. It keeps me consistent. Gives me integrity. Gives me boundaries. Helps me keep focused on myself so I don't give everything away.

I like this. I wonder if others can agree with it.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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OFFLINE!!! How horrible! How are you surviving? What up?
 

OrangeAppled

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Ni's job is to look within, past the surface. So in the case of INFJs (and possibly ENFJs), that description does not work; the INFJ's Fe has to take orders from Ni and is filtered through that lens. It could possibly fit as a stand-alone description of Fe, but no function works in isolation. Thus pretty much negating the veracity of that description for INFJs.

Of course no person is one function and discussing the functions as separate entities is difficult because of it. Yes, I think that is stand alone Fe, and probably far more reflective of someone leading with Fe. Just as an INFP is looking to connect through means of Ne and is not totally self-absorbed and unable to see outside their own internal feeling.

As far as ENFJs go (who I have more personal experience with than INFJs), I observe them displaying a great deal of insight to what is beyond the surface in people, but they focus on using it to create positive interactions. I think that's great and admirable, and I'm not sure why anyone would see it as "shallow".


I'll go through your posts and PM you all the negative and postive posts about Fe and FJs (because I care so much :)). Is that okay with you? I may be wrong on the ratio of positive and negative, but I don't think so.

Hey, it's your time...


I like this. I wonder if others can agree with it.

Yes, I can....I think Fi is not that focused on people directly.

Concerning empathy, it's very abstract for me. I feel detached when I empathize, yet involved. It's nothing "magical", but rather a challenge of sorts that engages me. Maybe my Fi is broken because I don't "read" people, but I think I can grasp what they express pretty well to put together a clear picture.
 

CzeCze

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You know a super simple personal understanding of Fe vs Fi is that Fe is that warm, outgoing even touchy feely quality in people. Fe is confidently coming up to strangers and hugging them.

Fe and Fi irl from what Ive seen feel very different. Fi is often cold and prickly and awkward and self conscious itself unless buffered with other aspects.

Fe works better in groups and more consistently and confidently expresses thoughts, desires, feelings, etc. Fi can be very particular and is expressed better/more easily 1 on 1 or in small groups and is inconsistent. Fi loops back on itself and thoughts of self/internal thoughts and feelings often interrupts or gets mixed in with feelings/thoughts of others that are getting expressed or need to be addressed (okay that was worded really badly Ill try again tomorrow). Thats why Fi dom users IRL can seem inconsistent and confounding.

That was the most startling difference once I started meeting more EFPs and EFJs. (I already knew a lot of INFPs)

Urgh, I'm sleepy now Ill reread later and change if need be. Not sure if this makes sense.

I love how Fe feels irl. Fi is intense and even secretiv, Fe is effusive. The difference, for myself, between dating an INFP and an INFJ is huuuuuuuuge.
 

Kalach

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Elephant in the room: Fe is directive.

And that means... what?

I know how Te is directive. It plus Fi produces a feeling that doing things in and of the world but against Te conclusions is wrong, stupid, dumb, wasteful, boring, irritating, offensive, etc. This consciousness tends me to make things come about in accord with the conclusions I have reached, either by doing it myself or being rude when others don't.
 

Amargith

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This thread has kinda...proven to me that explaining this to people just bites you in the ass. If a forum of people aware of other types and actually able to pinpoint the problem cannot even wrap their heads around it and figure this thing out, then how on earth are people irl who aren't into this ever going to understand and not judge. Don't get me wrong, I understand why but it's...yeah.

I'm thinking of one more attempt, creating my own thread with strict rules, to get to the bottom of this. We'll see how that goes.
 

sculpting

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I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape. And here's a mercenary thought: I'd find a way to capitalize on this ability and harness it into something lucrative.

If you made money off of it you would likely hurt others. Hurting others causes pain. You mirror and feel pain. FAIL (Key concept-you mirror what you PERCEIVE them to feel which is the inherent danger.)

Not energy, no magic-subtle cues: facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, eye movements. I very rarely ever make direct eye contact. I dont have to. I'd suspect an Se user would see the here and now. An Ne user likely will be better at predicting future pain points.

I hate this. Nothing to brag about here. No prize, no glory, just fucking pain and anxiety. That's why I am trying to find Fe. The bit I have found is heavenly. I can care deeply for them, but not bear their pain. I envy you in so many ways.

This thing we keep calling "empathy" is radically subjective and particularized. Fi-style empathy often fails to account for the "big picture" which is accounted for by Fe. Fe-style empathy often fails to identify with the other.

Fi is singularly focused. It can also neglect as it finds the "other" in the greatest pain, given it mirrors that great pain. I help the neediest while letting my nearest love ones bear mild discomfort. Had to correct this after an ISFJ pointed it out several years back. Its why ENFPs have so many pets.

To think big picture I have to combine with NeTe.

There are a million reasons why your experience may not match up with theirs. There's always some presumption because there's has to be some assumption that your understanding of their emotions has some correspondence to their actual experience.

So I guess I am a little confused. Do you guys actually have folks IRL who say "I know what you are feeling right now."? Or is it more "You look a little stressed, need anything?" sorts of comments? Or they try and argue about what you should feel and why you dont feel that way?

I dont know how exactly what I feel matches, but with IXTJs, I skip words and just "be" with them. There is a matching of facial expressions, tones, gestures, a mutual understanding. It feels very natural so it would never occur to me to vocalize this. Once I understood the Fe/Fi divide, I actually can walk up to any IXTJ, bounce into their proximity, hug them and then skip away. They love it. They seek me out after knowing them for about a week to share thier emo with me. With the exception of a few very close Fe users I dont even attempt any emo bonding as I understand it will always feel "wrong" to them and be rebuffed.

I personally believe that the boundaries between Fi and Fe are not as clear cut as they are made out to be. A lot of what is said about Fe can apply to Fi, and vice versa. Especially when Fe is paired with Ni, and Fi paired with Ne.

I think they are distinct biological entities which can be used to a certain extent at the same time, but the ability to do that varies. I'd guess the INFJs are closer to it than anyone else. The results and external behaviors can overlap considerably.

I'm almost always sensitive to my environment, like, it's hard for me to stay happy in a room full of anger or sadness. The only way for me to block it is if I'm really absorbed in reading something, or if I'm in tertiary Te bulldozer mode because it conveniently blocks my empathy.

Yes. Te blocks for a bit but when used this way leaves me hollow. As a kid I had no emotional connections as I think I lived in an INFJ shadow mode which blocked everyone else out.

I know how Te is directive. It plus Fi produces a feeling that doing things in and of the world but against Te conclusions is wrong, stupid, dumb, wasteful, boring, irritating, offensive, etc. This consciousness tends me to make things come about in accord with the conclusions I have reached, either by doing it myself or being rude when others don't.

Do you find you just say Fuck You and quit playing if people refuse to listen to Te? ie Apathy? Then watch them all bomb and just say "I told you so"
 

Totenkindly

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Do you find you just say Fuck You and quit playing if people refuse to listen to Te? ie Apathy? Then watch them all bomb and just say "I told you so"

Heck. I do that with Ti all the time.

I can't invest in movements, projects, ideas I see as doomed from the start because they are not well thought out, and often my last internal comment is: "Idiots -- I told you it wouldn't work."

Once I understood the Fe/Fi divide, I actually can walk up to any IXTJ, bounce into their proximity, hug them and then skip away. They love it. They seek me out after knowing them for about a week to share thier emo with me. With the exception of a few very close Fe users I dont even attempt any emo bonding as I understand it will always feel "wrong" to them and be rebuffed.

LOL!!!! Yes, at best I'd be like... "So, uh, what did THAT mean? Why didn't they do it <in this other situation>? What's going on? How do I read this? Do they like me, really? Or are they having a stroke? Or...?"

At worst, it would be like, "Uggh, get your <bleepingly bleep> hands off me until I understand what you're doing!"

It makes me feel like Fe has more expectation of ways that are appropriate to express connection/emotion, and if you go into a personal/spontaneous display a la Fi, Fe has no idea how to read it. And it might signal something entirely different (e.g., "he doesn't respect my body space").

Again, another Avatar example -- where Jake goes to spontaneously shake the tribe leader's hand in order to show he's friendly (his Fe ruleset) and the tribe almost throws him on the ground and slits his throat because it's seen immediately as a hostile act in their ruleset. If the rules get violated, or a behavior is outside the rules, the action cannot be interpreted correctly if at all; it's a void.
 

Seymour

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[...]
There are a million reasons why your experience may not match up with theirs. There's always some presumption because there's has to be some assumption that your understanding of their emotions has some correspondence to their actual experience.

So I guess I am a little confused. Do you guys actually have folks IRL who say "I know what you are feeling right now."? Or is it more "You look a little stressed, need anything?" sorts of comments? Or they try and argue about what you should feel and why you dont feel that way?

[...]

Sorry my statement was confusing... in context I was trying to respond to the whole "empathy is presumptuous" thing. I was pointing out that any empathy, sympathy or even intellectual understanding can only have an approximate view of what the other is feeling; every person's experience is ultimately uniquely theirs. I don't think that approximation is presumptuous at all... and I pointed out in my post that denying any commonality of experience and expression at all is ridiculous. I think the NTs just feel like we over-generalize the commonality and claim more knowledge than we do.

So I was saying that empathizing isn't claiming special inner knowledge of the other person necessarily. It's just an inner echo of what emotion we perceive, correctly or incorrectly.

I haven't heard anyone claim "I'm positive I know exactly what you are feeling despite your statements to the contrary." What I have seen is both cases of NTs (apparently accidentally) using emotionally laden language and other cases were xNFPs thought some neutral NT post was angry, because it boiled down to "you're wrong" with no emotional content and no softeners (which is just normal NT bluntness).
 

Moiety

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Seeing as MBTI is a system (and I realize I'm not saying anything new here...but, just a reminder), I think people would do well to create a direct analogy between Fe vs Fi and Te vs Ti (since there doesn't seem to be the same degree of confusion with the later).

But I urge you all to look past behavior when addressing these issues. These are world views. One strives to unify (Ji) and the other to separate into digestible chunks (Je). One is interested in the goal (Je) and the other in the means to that goal (Ji).
 
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