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  1. #81
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Deal.
    Great!

    BTW, I understand it sounding supernatural. It wasn't. Just involuntary. I'm just as glad I'm not that way as an adult.

  2. #82
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Of Feeling users who list their type in their profile:

    1362 FP
    1232 NFP
    848 FJ
    745 NFJ

    There's no mod magic; just a simple Member List search. There are more NTP users here than NFPs so they could possibly be the main source of the alleged anti-Fi bias and there are more NTJs here than FJs period. The main source isn't FJs. Wonder why? The collective power of Fe hegemony should bowl over anything else.

    I'm going to leave the thread for awhile. I don't think I'm contributing anything good right now.
    Aww, don't ruin my fun. The fact that you knew the relative ratios off the top of your head was mod magic . You're one of those moms that's going to tell your kids that Santa isn't real before they turn 3, aren't you?

    Crap, I guess I'm not contributing anything good now either.

  3. #83
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Aww, don't ruin my fun. The fact that you knew the relative ratios off the top of your head was mod magic . You're one of those moms that's going to tell your kids that Santa isn't real before they turn 3, aren't you?

    Crap, I guess I'm not contributing anything good now either.
    LOL, I am!

    My mother told me that one of the most heartbreaking moments of her life was when she found out that Santa's not real. She said she vowed she'd never deceive her children like that.

    I also knew how to put a condom on a banana by 8.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #84
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Before I go on, I want you to know that I accept everything you posted as valid, and that my comments are in no way intended to denigrate a word of what you typed. I'm just playing a point-counterpoint game here, with the hopes of finding an understanding we all can share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I just reread like 10-20 pages of Lenore thomsons's book hoping that I could quote her on Fi-doms and being predisposed or naturally adept at empathy.
    Unfortunately, she kept using other semi-similar words so I can't quote her on that one, and people could debate any word-transference I pick to get from what she says to empathy.

    I think she talks somewhere about Fi dom's naturally trying to see things "from other people's shoes/viewpoints" as in "IFP's are most likely to try and see something from someone else's viewpoint or to walk a mile in someone else's shoes". I'll keep looking, maybe its in the INFP section instead of the IFP section.

    I'm not sure it innately qualifies as "empathy", but I think the best answer I can try to give is to say this: Fi seeks universal values, and given their universal nature they cut through or ignore societies conventions and expectations [I can find quotes for that part]. To me, I consider this "more directly interacting with a person and their internal experience" as opposed to "social bartering" or "social currency", and to someone on the outside looking at this situation they might more likely describe such a Fi-approach as "empathy"
    These are all interesting points. I think it may betray a superficial view of Fe, however. Social currency is empathy, in a large sense, since you can't trade it without knowing the other person's valuations.

    Alright, forget Thomson, lets go with Myers-Briggs herself in Gifts Differing. Page 79 contrasts Fe and Fi. Its long and I don't want to quote it all, but personally I'd definitely attribute "empathy" to Fi over Fe based upon the descriptions on this page. Some snippets:

    Fe: determined chiefly by the objective factor and serves to make the individual feel correctly, that is conventionally, under all circumstances

    Fi: is determined by the subjective factor and serves as a guide to emotional acceptance or rejection of various aspects of life
    Once again, I think this gives a superficial view of Fe. It does not want to make sure that others feel "correctly", it wants to make sure all are sharing the same emotions to create a harmonious effect, thus limiting intragroup conflict. A well-developed Fe isn't going to impose a contrary emotion on someone at every turn; rather, it will seek to understand the contrary emotion, and then make a judgment as to whether it is in the person with the contrary emotion's best interests to adapt to the group surroundings and act accordingly, or, whether the group has neglected some very important information, and needs to modify its behavior.

    my thought: I'm not sure I fully agree here, but its what she wrote. "empathy" clearly belongs to Fi here [accept what is vs making someone feel conventionally/correctly
    Your assessment is accurate. I still do not like the conventional/correct classification. Rather, it's an understanding that one's own individual emotional output affects others.

    Fe: adapts the individual to the objective situation [hello, isnt this the opposite of empathy???]

    Fi:adapts the objective situation to the individual
    Once again, a misconception of Fe. Fe will adapt the situation to the individual... when it understands that the group's actions have a severely negative effect on one of its members. It will try to make the person "go along", but that's simply because it's the easiest way of establishing group harmony. Once it's been established that the person can't adapt to the surroundings, a well-developed Fe user will do what he or she can to modify the situation so that everyone gets along again.

    Fe: depends wholly on upon the ideals, conventions and customs of the environment

    Fi: depends upon abstract feeling-ideals...
    I don't understand this distinction. Wouldn't it just be easier and more accurate to say "Fe derives its emotional determination from the impact those emotions have on others" and "Fi derives its emotional determination from the impact a stimulus has on its own emotional response"?

    my thought: Fi again for "empathy" unless one really trusts "conventions"
    We in the West are accustomed to thinking of the individual as the base unit of humanity. This is not the only valid conceptualization.

    Fe: finds soundness and value in the collective ideals of the community, which are usually accepted without question

    Fi: finds soundness and value inside from [personal factors]

    my thought: Fi again, unless one accepts the communities expectations over one's own [as in "society says you should be feeling emotion X since you are in situation Y"]
    Yeah, I really don't agree with this. Fe finds soundness and value with the sharing of emotional experiences with others. In larger groups, it's just easier to do this following convention. In smaller groups, convention may be flouted to more accurately and acutely impact the members of the group.

    Fe: has as its goal the formation and maintenance of easy and harmonious emotional relationships with others

    Fi: has as its goal the fostering and development of an intense inner emotional life
    That's accurate.

    Fe: has a tendency to suppress the personal standpoint entirely...

    ^ thats like the antithesis of empathy there right???
    One's OWN personal standpoint, not that of others, which is valuable information as to the greater goal of establishing harmony among many.

    Ok, well I don't know if you agree with the above or what its getting at, but can you see how from what Briggs-Myers wrote about Fi and Fe that Fi seems more naturally empathetic? At best from the above descriptions [which again I don't agree with], the best Fe would seem to be able to do is say "I see that you fell this way, but societies social interaction expectations dictate that I will treat you some other way."
    Yeah those aren't exactly accurate.

  5. #85
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    ^ I think I agree with all of what you said, within the limits of my interpretation of some of what you wrote.

    I don't understand this distinction. Wouldn't it just be easier and more accurate to say "Fe derives its emotional determination from the impact those emotions have on others" and "Fi derives its emotional determination from the impact a stimulus has on its own emotional response"?

    I'm not sure what emotional determination means though???

    Let me say that I am a huge fan of ENFJ's, I think Myers-Briggs got her Fe wrong, and that her Fe descriptions are more aligned with ESFJ's than with ENFJ's. I totally prefer Thomson's descriptions over hers.

  6. #86
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    This will sound weird to you, no doubt (sounds weird to me as an adult), but as a kid I very much felt like I was the victim of uncontrolled empathy. Put me next to someone depressed, and I would feel depressed. Put me next to someone happy, and I would feel happy. I'm certain it wasn't psychic, but I was picking up on minor cues and it wasn't something I could turn off. Walking through a crowd by myself was like riding an emotional roller coaster: happy, sad, angry, depressed, deadened, in-love... all in the space of seconds as I looked at various people. All the changes could make me nauseous if I wasn't careful. If I had someone with me it was easier, because they would function as an emotional anchor for my out-of-control empathy.

    When I read about "mirror neurons" now, and how the autistic (and aspies) may have too many or two few, it makes me wonder (not that I fall into either group). I could see that Fi (and Fe) could be associated with more of that kind of processing. Animals are said to have the same ability, I doubt they consciously choose to develop it, either. I think responsible Fi users choose to refine it and make sure it's accurate before reacting to what they pick up, though.
    Can you give me the mirror neuron ref?

    I agree with what much of what you said. I would guess that an overly empathic Fi is actually somewhat underdeveloped. I suspect we do not use it, due to pain or lack of security growing up-likely more common in enfps. As an adult when we try to use it or are forced to use it, we cannot block the sensory input. It also is not calibrated properly to the input it receives from the "other" thus we feel more or less pain than they feel. Also Ne makes it cycle and amplify-much like an NeTi will cycle upon thoughts perhaps?

    I can cope well with an individual's pain-the pain of the masses can overwhelm me. My entp asks how I know that the pain I feel is what they feel. I have no idea. All I know is that I feel pain and anxiety.

    At work I had an office I'd say was as good as the CEO's. It had a giant window overlooking the oak trees out front without any poles, sidewalks or other obstructions like most other offices have. It was on the main drag where all the executives have offices.

    I traded it for a cube this last week as I could not handle the constant stream of traffic. Every face would carry stress, anxiety, emotion. I could not block it.


    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    (wait, j/k j/k!!)
    Perhaps you guys are very inclined towards empathy, but I still think it's an acquired skill, and nobody can be naturally good at empathizing. You have to ask questions from your outer world, create some sort of emotional database for referencing, and come across an array of different people before you can accurately empathize. Until you do that, the feelings that you believe you are taking in are just arbitrary hunches with nothing to back them except your own gut. I think this might be why Fi users come off as presumptuous some times, honestly. They don't ask the questions that they should ask in order to enhance their empathetic skills. I simply refuse to believe that Fi users have an innate ability to understand the emotions of others. That sounds almost supernatural. I believe that Fi users are inherently sensitive and generally place a lot of value in emotions, so they take pride in being empathetic, even when their empathy is erroneous.
    I think Fi and Ti may have a lot in common. I would suggest that both work off of learned rule sets. Ti is logical rulesets while Fi is value based rule sets.

    As I have been told by Ti users, logical fallacies are highly annoying and disruptive to a Ti user. Perhaps this feeling of annoyance helps build a proper Ti ruleset as you grow up?

    As an Fi user, pain builds my Fi ruleset. Mirrored external events that trigger internal pain are BAD by Fi ruleset definition. Mirrored external events that trigger internal happiness are good by definition.

    My Fi rules are pathetically simple, since I dont use it much.

    Rule 1: Did that hurt someone? Will that hurt someone? BAD. Are people happy? GOOD. I let Te take over to settle the equations when there is a dispute in the above two.

    I'd assume a more experienced Fi user will have much more resolution built into their Fi ruleset and have it more finely calibrated through proper feedback.

    realize "hunch"=pain. Ewwwww.

    Also-realize for an NeFi not to "feel" would be much like an NeTi who stopped thinking....do you guys ever stop thinking?

    Does Ti mirror the ideas of others as a way to process the information like Fi mirrors emotive states? I think this may occur as I can see my NeTi's get tripped up when given Te info. It's to the point where my ENTP and I cross interpret each other's bosses' emails. "WTF is this guy talking about?"

  7. #87
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    ^ I think I agree with all of what you said, within the limits of my interpretation of some of what you wrote.

    I don't understand this distinction. Wouldn't it just be easier and more accurate to say "Fe derives its emotional determination from the impact those emotions have on others" and "Fi derives its emotional determination from the impact a stimulus has on its own emotional response"?

    I'm not sure what emotional determination means though???

    Let me say that I am a huge fan of ENFJ's, I think Myers-Briggs got her Fe wrong, and that her Fe descriptions are more aligned with ESFJ's than with ENFJ's. I totally prefer Thomson's descriptions over hers.
    Emotional determination: "this is a positive feeling" "this is a negative feeling" "this feeling is neutral, but appropriate/inappropriate for this circumstance" so on and so forth

  8. #88
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Once again, I think this gives a superficial view of Fe. It does not want to make sure that others feel "correctly", it wants to make sure all are sharing the same emotions to create a harmonious effect, thus limiting intragroup conflict. A well-developed Fe isn't going to impose a contrary emotion on someone at every turn; rather, it will seek to understand the contrary emotion, and then make a judgment as to whether it is in the person with the contrary emotion's best interests to adapt to the group surroundings and act accordingly, or, whether the group has neglected some very important information, and needs to modify its behavior.

    Once again, a misconception of Fe. Fe will adapt the situation to the individual... when it understands that the group's actions have a severely negative effect on one of its members. It will try to make the person "go along", but that's simply because it's the easiest way of establishing group harmony. Once it's been established that the person can't adapt to the surroundings, a well-developed Fe user will do what he or she can to modify the situation so that everyone gets along again.
    From the external viewpoint-typically the discrepant member ends up getting shunned until the group is collapsing. I am very guilty of disrupting the group consensus and typically I will be ignored-until proven right. I am trying to learn how not to speak up.

  9. #89
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Emotional determination: "this is a positive feeling" "this is a negative feeling" "this feeling is neutral, but appropriate/inappropriate for this circumstance" so on and so forth
    I would say that feelings are direct personal experiences of our current inner state. Questions of "appropriate/inappropriate" sound like Fe/social convention to me, and "positive/negative/neutral" even seems weird and definitely judgemental to me. Feelings are a natural reaction to our situation and represent our internal state. I hope you feel bad/negative if you just killed someone for example. We may enjoy or not enjoy our emotions, but it is important to experience them as they are if they are going to be let go off and moved on from. Emotional processing. Not all emotions are pretty, some are pretty complicated. Covering over things or saying "I should feel THIS way so I will ignore or deny that I actually feel THAT way" creates emotional/psychological issues, IMO.

    Maybe this is just me, but I think of Fi as asking this question "is this honestly how I feel?" as opposed to "is my emotion acceptable?" or whatnot.

  10. #90
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Also-realize for an NeFi not to "feel" would be much like an NeTi who stopped thinking....do you guys ever stop thinking?
    More often than you might think. Sometimes, I just switch gears into pure sensory input (not Se, since I don't react to it) and let the information come pouring in. It's very refreshing and relaxing. Unfortunately, it also gets boring after about 5 minutes.

    Does Ti mirror the ideas of others as a way to process the information like Fi mirrors emotive states? I think this may occur as I can see my NeTi's get tripped up when given Te info. It's to the point where my ENTP and I cross interpret each other's bosses' emails. "WTF is this guy talking about?"
    Mirroring isn't really the right way to put it - rather, start assembling the information as it comes in.

    The Te reaction is something like the following:

    1: who the F do you think you are? (If a superior, go to 2, if not, start raising hell)
    2: do the words coming out of the person's mouth sound like English? (If yes, go to 3, if no, go to 4)
    3: do those words make any sense? (If yes, go to 5, if no, ignore and continue on as before)
    4: is the person supposed to be speaking English? (If yes, ignore and continue on as before, if no, switch gears to proper language and start again at 1)
    5: do the instructions logically follow? (If yes, go to 6, if no, go to 7)
    6: is there any way the instructions could be improved? (If yes, point out the improvements, and go to 8, if no, comply with the instructions)
    7: does it make any sense to raise the issue? (If yes, start the NeTi browbeating, if no, comply passive-aggressively)
    8: does the superior agree with your improvements? (If yes, feel good about yourself, if no, comply passive-aggressively and start looking for a new job)

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