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  1. #71
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Perhaps you guys are very inclined towards empathy, but I still think it's an acquired skill, and nobody can be naturally good at empathizing. You have to ask questions from your outer world, create some sort of emotional database for referencing, and come across an array of different people before you can accurately empathize. Until you do that, the feelings that you believe you are taking in are just arbitrary hunches with nothing to back them except your own gut. I think this might be why Fi users come off as presumptuous some times, honestly. They don't ask the questions that they should ask in order to enhance their empathetic skills. I simply refuse to believe that Fi users have an innate ability to understand the emotions of others. That sounds almost supernatural. I believe that Fi users are inherently sensitive and generally place a lot of value in emotions, so they take pride in being empathetic, even when their empathy is erroneous.
    Who claims there's some supernatural reading? That's practically all I do when presented with a situation where empathy seems in order: ask questions and let them describe their feeling and try to see it from their perspective. 90% of empathizing is just listening to people vent.

    I maintain we do not need to directly experience something to understand it. Intuition allows for connection of seemingly unrelated events/feelings/etc. Inclination, predisposed...it means the same thing. Of course there are NFPs with crappy empathizing skills, just like there are totally illogical NTs. No one is born with much of any skill, but there can be predisposition to develop certain ones.

    I don't relate to the being so affected by empathy that I involuntarily feel things all the time. Maybe I am less sensitive than some NFPs, in a bad way though. I'm not quite as sensitive to other people like NFPs are "supposed" to be.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #72
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Claims I'm comfortable with:

    Where other people are concerned, my feeling works by upsetting me at their expense. If an environment or situation comes to pass that would have, where I in their shoes, put me into some bad state, then I--assuming I care for those people in some close or distant form--act. I can't call it empathy because there is no guarantee that I am accurately predicting their state. And indeed, I'm sort of aware that when it's an Fe user I'm looking at, I probably get their state wrong (or I get it right but will naturally choose the wrong action in response). I could see people with more developed talents in this area actually having empathy. One assumes they could come from either team.

    Claims that move in to weirder territory:

    One assumes Fi users would be hand's-offy as far as the feeling itself goes. Technically, one assumes, they act to change environments, not people, since they're using extraverted thinking at the last "what to do now" stage of the process. Fe users--who knows? That F is directive.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #73
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I've read many of the same threads you have, and given the significant numerical advantage Fi users seem to have on the site, that there is this pervasive, all-enveloping bias throughout the site seems a little strange to me.
    It's like a loop actually... We (INFPs I mean) are conflict-averse and every post we make seems like we are sticking our necks out. And given the fact that we are not very good at explaining what Fi is, our positive comments either get ignored as biased or get shot down. Which would seem like a personal attack on us instead of our ideas, and we become even more cautious and defensive of what to say, and end up bottling everything up inside. Or even worse, the INFP would feel that what he/she reads is 100% true...

    To me, a lot of the emo, whiny "My life sux" dump you see is caused by that bottled up stuff suddenly escaping out. You can't always keep a lid on it. It happened to me just this week and the Facebook post I made was horribly embarassing in hindsight
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  4. #74
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The problem with Myers description is, like Scott said, that her expression of what Fe is doesn't apply to a large percentage of Fe users.

    I agree that Fi users can easily take others' emotions on as their own, just as Fe users can easily take others' needs on as their own. Both users may be incorrect about either the other person's emotions or needs, depending on their experience in using either function. In both case, they must be willing verify with the other person that their perceptions are in fact correct.

  5. #75
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    One assumes Fi users would be hand's-offy as far as the feeling itself goes. Technically, one assumes, they act to change environments, not people, since they're using extraverted thinking at the last "what to do now" stage of the process.
    I can agree to that. "Changing environments" sounds better than "Running away"
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  6. #76
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Orange, no joke, I don't take kindly to people making accusations about me.

    I have left you a total of FIVE comments in all the time you've been on this forum. Three of them occured in 2009 and two within the last weeks as specific responses to something you've said in thread and here they are:

    Those are the two comments I've left you within the last two weeks. You sent me a PM in response to the first comment, I have never sent you any PMs.

    If you'd like to know what pisses me off it's this: making insinuations against me. Quit it.
    I sent the PM in response to your passive aggressive rep comment, and you replied, so yes, that is a PM. There was also that ridiculous accusation in the thread about types reactioning (http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...eacting-2.html). I'd like you to stop nitpicking me.


    Besides INTP, INFP is the most numerous type on the forum. There is hardly an anti-Fi bias. Just really really sensitive people.
    Who is the most numerous type does not change what I said, nor does it indicate what type dominates the vibe of the board. The bias is not coming from NFPs, duh.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #77
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Who claims there's some supernatural reading? That's practically all I do when presented with a situation where empathy seems in order: ask questions and let them describe their feeling and try to see it from their perspective. 90% of empathizing is just listening to people vent.
    Seymour's suggestions in his post to which I was replying seemed "supernatural" to me. That's all I meant by that. Can you attempt to understand my words in context next time? k thx.

    I'm glad that you ask questions, but I think it's safe to say that some NFPs don't. These are the types that may be "shortsighted."

    I maintain we do not need to directly experience something to understand it. Intuition allows for connection of seemingly unrelated events/feelings/etc. Inclination, predisposed...it means the same thing. Of course there are NFPs with crappy empathizing skills, just like there are totally illogical NTs. No one is born with much of any skill, but there can be predisposition to develop certain ones.
    Agreed. We do not necessarily need to experience something to understand it. However, if we don't experience things that we claim to understand, we need to be more open to the possibility that our interpretations and ideas about such things may be flawed and subject to correction upon further experience.

  8. #78
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    (wait, j/k j/k!!)
    Is it playing just for me?!? So sweet of you!


    I have a very close INFP that says very similiar things about herself. She claims that she can't watch graphic, intense movies without taking on the emotions of the movie herself. It's like there's no barrier, and it's quite interesting.
    As a kid, I had the same issue. The thing is, it doesn't matter whether the emotion we are mirroring is real or not. We can get faked out. We are really tuned into small, subtle cues but it's not magic. We can be wrong. We can be mistaken. It's empathy, but it's fallible empathy.


    Perhaps you guys are very inclined towards empathy, but I still think it's an acquired skill, and nobody can be naturally good at empathizing. You have to ask questions from your outer world, create some sort of emotional database for referencing, and come across an array of different people before you can accurately empathize. Until you do that, the feelings that you believe you are taking in are just arbitrary hunches with nothing to back them except your own gut. I think this might be why Fi users come off as presumptuous some times, honestly. They don't ask the questions that they should ask in order to enhance their empathetic skills. I simply refuse to believe that Fi users have an innate ability to understand the emotions of others. That sounds almost supernatural. I believe that Fi users are inherently sensitive and generally place a lot of value in emotions, so they take pride in being empathetic, even when their empathy is erroneous.
    Being accurate is an acquired skill. Being tuned into subtle cues and reading into them less so.

    That why on the "pretentious Fi" thread I was trying to focus on what cues the Fi-users you were talking about were picking up on.

    In some cases, like your post earlier, it will be an absence of cues plus a factual "you're wrong" content. In those cases, the ascribed emotion is likely to be either projection, or "if it were me and I responded that way, it would mean I was angry" (which is another kind of projection, in a way).

    In other cases, there will be cues that have been given (word choice, body language, tone of voice) that the NFPs are picking up on. In some cases, you may have used words or other cues that were actually saying "I'm angry" or whatever. It's not always Fi-users projecting onto an emotional vacuum.

    In either case, I think it's helpful for both sides to focus on the specifics, so we can figure out where miscommunication happened. One advantage of text is that we can go back, look, and be really specific. I would be nice if we could all bend over backwards to make sure that nothing was either transmitted or received that wasn't meant. That's clearly not going to happen consistently in reality, though. It seems like it we all opine on the generalities it boils "you say we suck!" "No, we didn't, but now that you mention it..."

    So, I'll tell you what: I'll try to take a step back and examine things carefully if you claim I'm projecting, and you agree to re-examine language and other cues for emotional content if I claim you are coming across as expressing some emotion.

  9. #79
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    So, I'll tell you what: I'll try to take a step back and examine things carefully if you claim I'm projecting, and you agree to re-examine language and other cues for emotional content if I claim you are coming across as expressing some emotion.
    Deal.

  10. #80
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Quantifiable evidence from a respectable mod FTW!!
    Of Feeling users who list their type in their profile:

    1362 FP
    1232 NFP
    848 FJ
    745 NFJ

    There's no mod magic; just a simple Member List search. There are more NTP users here than NFPs so they could possibly be the main source of the alleged anti-Fi bias and there are more TJs here than FJs period. The main source isn't FJs. Wonder why? The collective power of Fe hegemony should bowl over anything else.

    I'm going to leave the thread for awhile. I don't think I'm contributing anything good right now.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 12-30-2009 at 08:10 PM. Reason: corrected numbers
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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