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  1. #31
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can't agree that Fi "projects". I just don't project or pretend to I know what other people are feeling and I've never met a Fi-dom who does. I don't think that is a Fi inherent trait, and I will continue to reject that assertion. It is in complete opposition to what empathy actually is, which is understanding other's expression of their feelings, even if foreign to your experience or if "wrong". You're not really empathizing if you only consider how you personally would feel.

    Taking things personally is not the same as projecting. One has to do with your own feelings, the other has to do with the feelings of others.
    I don't think the projection we're talking about is associated with taking things personally. The projection to which I'm referring is the NFP's insistence upon how others seem to be feeling, and if you don't agree that this occurs, just look at the first page of this thread.

    Maybe it's not purely a result of projection, but projection occurs because it's the easiest way to figure out feelings when the issue is emotionally puzzling. It seems like some times NFPs look for emotional connections when there really aren't any (and I bet many NFPs would argue that there are *always* emotional connections, even when others don't see them, but most other types would argue that that's not the case). You guys care about being empathetic and figuring out feelings, so maybe you just look too deeply for emotional signs. Therefore, in cases that are impersonal and emotionally neutral, you find correlations that aren't really there, and the easiest correlation to find with other peoples' feelings (or in this case, create?) is the one that you'd personally feel yourself. Thus the phenomenon of "projection."

  2. #32
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Can someone please answer why Fi users (actually NFPs because SFPs aren't claiming this) want to claim so badly the Empathy Prize. Fi does not have a monopoly on empathy, Fi is not more predisposed towards empathy. These are character traits, these are learned traits, the are developable traits, not traits inherent to a cognitive function. Sometimes when people describe Fi it's like they just touch a person and this searing emotional pain just overwhelms them and they pass out on the floor from the power of it. It's comical! It doesn't even align with real life at all.

    I feel like I just had a breakthrough of understanding about Fi a couple of days ago and then it gets completely ruined when I see the progression of this thread and it just reconfirms things that I was trying to see beyond in the first place. I tried that once and the only person who responded to me evenly was Happy Puppy and I think we had a good round of PMs going back and forth about this.

    Can we have a discussion about functions without people getting all defensive and teary-eyed? What good does it do to only discuss the positives of a function and never the negatives? If someone says something negative about a function, detach yourself from it. See if you do or don't do what's being described. Think of the situations where you could've possibly reacted the same way. Would you like to be called a wholly immature person for a situational event?

    I noticed this thread went unanswered for a couple of days and I was interested in hearing from what people had to say, I thought it had the potential to be an enlightening thread. When responses do finally start coming in within 30 posts it descends into mudslinging. Typical.

    One thing I must say about this forum is I've become much more self-aware of the negative aspects of Fe within in myself and others. I know that I've done some of the shady shit people describe about Fe and quite frankly will probably do so again in the future. Some stuff I just brush off, but some stuff has opened my eyes to my behavior more instead of me just shrugging it off and saying "That's not me! That's not Fe!" I think yeah, I can see that happening.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  3. #33
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can't agree that Fi "projects". I just don't project or pretend to I know what other people are feeling and I've never met a Fi-dom who does. I don't think that is a Fi inherent trait, and I will continue to reject that assertion. It is in complete opposition to what empathy actually is, which is understanding other's expression of their feelings, even if foreign to your experience or if "wrong". You're not really empathizing if you only consider how you personally would feel.

    Taking things personally is not the same as projecting. One has to do with your own feelings, the other has to do with the feelings of others.
    bolded part = win

    If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    bolded part = win

    If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
    They're picking up on your emotions yes, but the interpretation is their own. It's what happens when you forget, in your haste or due to stress, to consider who the person in front of you is and how they in the past have responded to that particular emotion and what they logically would do with that emotion and how they'd respond. And yes, it happens that your own emotions get jumbled up in there as well, ime, that their anger fuels your own, which tends to then mingle together, making it seem more intense than it really is, and making also the interpretation corrupted. It's hard to seperate those sometimes in the heat of it all, ime.

    The initial reading was right, it just got lost in translation. It's what happens with Ti as well when it's being 'abused' to prove a point instead of being genuinly curious to see where the hypothesis will go once it gets put into practice and tested. Wishful thinking if you will. For us it's Wisfhul Feeling I am guessing.


    Fwiw, I agree that SW's post was his typical standard NeTi style without any bad vibes to it. However, SW, you kinda have gotten unfortunately a bit of a rep, I fear, and you seem always ready to jump at Fi. At least, I personally also do find you vibing that out every time you're in a Fi-thread, even when you do in fact stay neutral and contribute valuable things. It's bound to make things a bit tense and to trigger a FiSi memory with some, knowing they can expect this from you. Not saying I agree with those that would be anticipating and jumping the gun on you doing this, but surely you can understand
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  5. #35
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    bolded part = win

    If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
    I think we are good at putting ourselves into other people's shoes, but it is still ourselves we are putting there. We can be good at building up a mental model of the other person's emotional state, but it's only as good as the data we have to draw upon (both about the individual and with other similar individuals). Our biggest pool of data is ourselves, and that's what we use to fill in the blanks. Of course projection is going to happen! Over time, projection gets tempered with actual experience and our model of the other person (and other people in general) becomes more accurate.

    When I read your initial response, I did glance at who it was coming from. If an INFP had been that blunt, I probably would have thought they were upset. I work with lots of NTs, though, so I looked for actual emotional content in your post and there was none.

    I think Fi does predispose one towards empathy (although it's not the only source for it), but it's imperfect and it's not magical. In the absence of information, projection can and will occur.

    Ideally, being more type aware should make INFPs more aware NT-style bluntness, and make NTs more aware of INFP's tendency towards emotional projection. We INFPs can help by carefully looking for explicit emotional content when we think we detect some, and keeping in mind who is doing the speaking.

    NTs can help by not choosing emotionally laden language unless they mean it (as simulatedworld did by using neutral language). If they want to bend over backwards, they can provide some emotional content so it won't be a blank screen for projecting upon. However, I think that's an unreasonable and unfair demand to place on NTs in general.

    Anyway, I think a bit of patience of understanding go a long way. Seems like part of the point of a forum like this is to have to place to work through some of these misunderstandings and figure out how to deal with them.

  6. #36
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    bolded part = win

    If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
    I suspect thaat your total inability to see that you are so often seen as condescending and arrogant may be because you lack Fi, which may also explain why you don't know where it comes from.

  7. #37
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Guys, I do have to agree in this case with Jennifer though. Let's pester SW at some other time, and having stand trial for this in his very own thread or somethign(ohh come on, you'd love the attention, SW ), and get on with the topic at hand.

    His contribution in this thread was definitely not without merit.
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  8. #38
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Depending on type, I know I've most certainly learned here that I must tailor my responses and reactions based on the information I have about the speaker. What would be very hostile coming from an INFP or an INFJ is often quite devoid of negative emotion coming from an NT. I drove my ESTJ boyfriend nuts by sometimes looking for deeper meaning when there wasn't any intended, just as it bothered me that he didn't read in between the lines with me. I also realized that some types learn more from focussing on differences while others learn more by starting from common ground and branching off. What I once would have taken offense to, I can now usually recognize as quite separate from me.

    Like Seymour and Protean were saying, it is our interactions with different types that teach us most about our own pitfalls as well as make us more aware of how to interpret others behaviour, words and emotions more correctly. At the end of the day, we do have to rely on the other person as our main source of information about them, rather than ourselves.

  9. #39
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Wow, SW.

    You're really aversed to Fi, aren't you?

    I'm sorry.
    Lolwut.

    EDIT: Oh hell, 4th page already.

  10. #40
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I don't think the projection we're talking about is associated with taking things personally. The projection to which I'm referring is the NFP's insistence upon how others seem to be feeling, and if you don't agree that this occurs, just look at the first page of this thread.

    Maybe it's not purely a result of projection, but projection occurs because it's the easiest way to figure out feelings when the issue is emotionally puzzling. It seems like some times NFPs look for emotional connections when there really aren't any (and I bet many NFPs would argue that there are *always* emotional connections, even when others don't see them, but most other types would argue that that's not the case). You guys care about being empathetic and figuring out feelings, so maybe you just look too deeply for emotional signs. Therefore, in cases that are impersonal and emotionally neutral, you find correlations that aren't really there, and the easiest correlation to find with other peoples' feelings (or in this case, create?) is the one that you'd personally feel yourself. Thus the phenomenon of "projection."
    Well, I can easily accept someone coming from a neutral angle when it's true. I'm actually not that interested in figuring out people's feelings. I usually only examine what is thrust on me and solicited from me. I prefer to remain untouched, not to have empathy stirred - that is tiring.

    However, when there is a pattern of denying any emotion in the moment and then later admitting the Fi person was correct, then it's hard to take that person's denial seriously if they exhibit that very same behavior in the future. This is why I don't project - If I don't know someone well, I have no sense of who they are and cannot pretend to know; I can only go by what they express. If I know someone very well, that is the only time I may trust my instinct over their claims, because it's based on a consistent pattern of behavior I have noted. That's still rare because I don't push confrontation, and if someone says, "I don't feel that way", then I am content to leave it there. I've never seen an NFP insist that someone feels something they do not, so I imagine I am pretty typical. The insistence that we do that is tiring and needs to be dropped.

    Then there is the issue of expression. Word choices, phrasing, vocal tones, facial expressions, etc, DO have clear connotations in every culture. I'd argue these are often Fe and Si determined, because I sure get grief for not always following them also. So if you exhibit behavior generally considered "angry" by the majority of people, you shouldn't be so surprised when people see you that way, even if it's not true. It is your responsibility to communicate yourself clearly and be aware of how you come across to others. Everyone has to do that, of any type.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can someone please answer why Fi users (actually NFPs because SFPs aren't claiming this) want to claim so badly the Empathy Prize. Fi does not have a monopoly on empathy, Fi is not more predisposed towards empathy. These are character traits, these are learned traits, the are developable traits, not traits inherent to a cognitive function. Sometimes when people describe Fi it's like they just touch a person and this searing emotional pain just overwhelms them and they pass out on the floor from the power of it. It's comical! It doesn't even align with real life at all.
    I've never heard anyone make these claims, especially your ridiculous description of how a Fi user feels empathy. No one is saying only Fi empathizes anyway. I disagree that certain functions are not predisposed to certain strengths though. Everyone can develop empathy, yes, but MBTI profiles note patterns in types, and that's why NFPs get tagged as being empathetic. There is a predisposition for certain traits in certain types, whether it is true of every individual of that type or not. How else would you type people?

    Why the insistence on denying every positive attribute ascribed to Fi? Do you have anything positive to say about it? I think that's more of a challenge for some people here. Say something positive about NFPs directly related to their Fi usage - I dare you.

    Can we have a discussion about functions without people getting all defensive and teary-eyed? What good does it do to only discuss the positives of a function and never the negatives?
    It was going great til the ENTPs barged in. Back and forth discussion from Fe & Fi users, acknowledgment of weaknesses, etc. I personally don't feel a discussion has to be void of emotion to be valid anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    bolded part = win

    If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
    Metaphorical application through Ne. It's called imagination and making very abstract connections, not direct comparisons. It's common for an INFP to trust theory over their own experience for the same reason. We prefer to look at the numerous possibilities over past experiences.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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