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[Fi] Fe blindness; Fi shortsightedness

simulatedworld

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I posted in this thread to discuss function theory, and inevitably the INFPs invent a bunch of nonsensical emotional back story and then blame me after they're the ones who've dragged personal baggage into it.

It really gets old, guys. My first post here had lots of legitimate, pertinent, directly on-topic content that some of you could have learned from, which you all chose to completely ignore in favor of moaning about what an asshole I am. Believe it or not, I actually know a good bit about this topic, regardless of what you think about my emotions.


Actually, rereading SW's first post, it was absolutely T-style neutral.
Tone seems determined by listener as well as by speaker.
That's why I prefer we go back to topic, thanks.

I really appreciate you pointing this out. Please take note, INFPs.
 

neptunesnet

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The thread topic is "Fe blindness; Fi shortsightedness" ... not "Why does SW sound grumpy all the time and thus probably dislike Fi?"

Fine.

:dry:

I find it odd, though, that even though he has a history of this sort of behavior it's still written off/condoned.
But whatever. I don't care enough.

*erases last five minutes from brain*


Since I grew up in the South (which is more extraverted and Fe-based, socially) moving to the Northeast was kind of a shock. On the one hand, people here are less friendly and outgoing, but conversely when they seem friendly and interested it's usually because they actually are.

I agree.

I'm a southern and many of the customs seem to be Fe-based. There is a lot of importance on what is socially appropriate. On one hand, I really like the fact that I can go out in public and be greeted kindly by complete strangers. However, I also like the fact that whenever I visit family up north that usually when I'm greeted it's, like you said, because the people are genuinely interested in me.

Fe and Fi both have their pros and cons. It really just depends.
 

Scott N Denver

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There's a description of Fe I have read that is basically that Fe is sensitive to 'social currency' and can work with it well. Social currency is something to the effect of, when you greet someone you have given a certain amount of social currency and the other person should respond in kind, and depending on who the person is, they may respond differently, believing that they indeed HAVE payed in kind, even though you dont see it that way. Sort of understanding others by how they 'spend their money.'

I hope that made sense.

Social currency, a very good explanation or description of Fe. Fwiw, I was following Lenore Thomson's description, but 100% concur with a "social currency" explanation


I always see Fi as being concerned with individuals. If people have internal peace, then they will exude that feeling and it will color their interactions and motives, resulting in more external harmony, and the world will be closer to the ideal.

I think Fi can seem self-absorbed to Fe because it's so concerned with its individual self and authenticity, and it can ignore group standards, but that concern is extended to other individuals in many situations (often why we root for the underdog, the outcast, the misunderstood). In that sense, yes, we are "short-sighted", because we cannot skip past the internal feeling - it must be dealt with first before we can step outside ourselves and gain perspective.

I see Fe as being concerned with group harmony. If people get along and things run smoothly between them, then that will affect how they feel inside for the better, creating internal peace that further supports external peace, and the world will be closer to the ideal.

I think Fe can start with promoting the peace externally before it is felt internally, and that seems to "fake" to Fi - Fe can be "fake it until it's real" from my Fi perspective. In that sense, yes, they are "blind", because they cannot see the trees for the forest - individual feelings can get lost while promoting group needs, including the Fe's own personal feelings/needs.

So I see Fe and Fi as having similar goals, but working from opposite ends. I think in best situation, they are extremely complementary, but it requires an ability to understand that the other is coming from a different direction, and hey, you gotta meet each other in the middle. It's something like a language barrier sometimes - things can get lost in translation, but if it's overcome, then a lot of good can be accomplished.

* This is all generalizing to express my viewpoint, because I do realize that no one is entirely one way or the other. I'm also referring to Fi and Fe primarily in NFs, because I think SF motivations are less "ideal oriented" - they seem more about practical and immediate results for harmonious feelings/relationships. From that perspective, NFs can seem blind and SFs can seem short-sighted, but for different reasons.

Another good post from OA :smile:

I have to be careful or else my intended-to-be-short posts don't actually stay short. :coffee:
 

simulatedworld

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Actually I think this thread yielded a relevant and educational example of Fe vs. Fi:

Fe is much better at gauging how other people feel and responding appropriately. The downside comes when Fe users neglect how people do feel and start focusing on how the Fe user thinks they should feel. Fe can become blind to the needs of others when it gets too caught up in critiquing their fulfillment of perceived social obligations.

Fi is much better at getting in touch with one's personal feelings, but the downside occurs when the Fi user starts projecting these feelings and motivations onto others (generally due to poor understanding of what actually motivates others.)

I understand that if Fi is your dominant function, it's hard not to see everything in terms of personal emotional values, but that's the very definition of "Fi short-sightedness", now isn't it?

(Here you guys have a neutral third-party, and a moderator no less, pointing out an obvious perceptual bias in your interpretations of my posts...and STILL you refuse to listen. I would urge you to step outside of your perceptual bubble for a moment and try to consider that you may, in fact, overestimate the emotional content of the motivations of others at times. This doesn't make you bad people, but in the interest of learning about other perspectives and growing into more balanced people, it's certainly something you may want to consider!)
 

teslashock

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(Here you guys have a neutral third-party, and a moderator no less, pointing out an obvious perceptual bias in your interpretations of my posts...and STILL you refuse to listen. I would urge you to step outside of your perceptual bubble for a moment and try to consider that you may, in fact, overestimate the emotional content of the motivations of others at times. This doesn't make you bad people, but in the interest of learning about other perspectives and growing into more balanced people, it's certainly something you may want to consider!)

Oh snap, guys! He put an exclamation point at the end of that last sentence. He's really pissed now. Better make haste and run away to another thread before this gets any more out of control.
 

Thalassa

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Sim's first post was clearly NOT Fi bashing.

Carry on. :coffee:
 

simulatedworld

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Sim's first post was clearly NOT Fi bashing.

Carry on. :coffee:

See? For the love of God, even another NFP agrees with me. (Thanks marm, btw.)

At some point you guys are going to have to acknowledge that Fi is not always giving you reliable information about the emotional states of others. It's very good for assessing your own feelings, but it's still an introverted function; meaning, it doesn't pick up external world information. You'll have to use Ne/Se for that.


Oh snap, guys! He put an exclamation point at the end of that last sentence. He's really pissed now. Better make haste and run away to another thread before this gets any more out of control.

:laugh:
 

Scott N Denver

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Actually I think this thread yielded a relevant and educational example of Fe vs. Fi:

Fe is much better at gauging how other people feel and responding appropriately. The downside comes when Fe users neglect how people do feel and start focusing on how the Fe user thinks they should feel. Fe can become blind to the needs of others when it gets too caught up in critiquing their fulfillment of perceived social obligations.

Fi is much better at getting in touch with one's personal feelings, but the downside occurs when the Fi user starts projecting these feelings and motivations onto others (generally due to poor understanding of what actually motivates others.)

I understand that if Fi is your dominant function, it's hard not to see everything in terms of personal emotional values, but that's the very definition of "Fi short-sightedness", now isn't it?

(Here you guys have a neutral third-party, and a moderator no less, pointing out an obvious perceptual bias in your interpretations of my posts...and STILL you refuse to listen. I would urge you to step outside of your perceptual bubble for a moment and try to consider that you may, in fact, overestimate the emotional content of the motivations of others at times. This doesn't make you bad people, but in the interest of learning about other perspectives and growing into more balanced people, it's certainly something you may want to consider!)


I generally concur with the above


Sim's first post was clearly NOT Fi bashing.

Carry on. :coffee:

Concurring again in this instance
 

simulatedworld

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Let the record show that I appreciate Scott and Seymour for their acknowledgement of the validity of my ideas here.
 

OrangeAppled

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I can't agree that Fi "projects". I just don't project or pretend to I know what other people are feeling and I've never met a Fi-dom who does. I don't think that is a Fi inherent trait, and I will continue to reject that assertion. It is in complete opposition to what empathy actually is, which is understanding other's expression of their feelings, even if foreign to your experience or if "wrong". You're not really empathizing if you only consider how you personally would feel.

Taking things personally is not the same as projecting. One has to do with your own feelings, the other has to do with the feelings of others.
 

teslashock

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I can't agree that Fi "projects". I just don't project or pretend to I know what other people are feeling and I've never met a Fi-dom who does. I don't think that is a Fi inherent trait, and I will continue to reject that assertion. It is in complete opposition to what empathy actually is, which is understanding other's expression of their feelings, even if foreign to your experience or if "wrong". You're not really empathizing if you only consider how you personally would feel.

Taking things personally is not the same as projecting. One has to do with your own feelings, the other has to do with the feelings of others.

I don't think the projection we're talking about is associated with taking things personally. The projection to which I'm referring is the NFP's insistence upon how others seem to be feeling, and if you don't agree that this occurs, just look at the first page of this thread.

Maybe it's not purely a result of projection, but projection occurs because it's the easiest way to figure out feelings when the issue is emotionally puzzling. It seems like some times NFPs look for emotional connections when there really aren't any (and I bet many NFPs would argue that there are *always* emotional connections, even when others don't see them, but most other types would argue that that's not the case). You guys care about being empathetic and figuring out feelings, so maybe you just look too deeply for emotional signs. Therefore, in cases that are impersonal and emotionally neutral, you find correlations that aren't really there, and the easiest correlation to find with other peoples' feelings (or in this case, create?) is the one that you'd personally feel yourself. Thus the phenomenon of "projection."
 

proteanmix

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Can someone please answer why Fi users (actually NFPs because SFPs aren't claiming this) want to claim so badly the Empathy Prize. Fi does not have a monopoly on empathy, Fi is not more predisposed towards empathy. These are character traits, these are learned traits, the are developable traits, not traits inherent to a cognitive function. Sometimes when people describe Fi it's like they just touch a person and this searing emotional pain just overwhelms them and they pass out on the floor from the power of it. It's comical! It doesn't even align with real life at all.

I feel like I just had a breakthrough of understanding about Fi a couple of days ago and then it gets completely ruined when I see the progression of this thread and it just reconfirms things that I was trying to see beyond in the first place. I tried that once and the only person who responded to me evenly was Happy Puppy and I think we had a good round of PMs going back and forth about this.

Can we have a discussion about functions without people getting all defensive and teary-eyed? What good does it do to only discuss the positives of a function and never the negatives? If someone says something negative about a function, detach yourself from it. See if you do or don't do what's being described. Think of the situations where you could've possibly reacted the same way. Would you like to be called a wholly immature person for a situational event?

I noticed this thread went unanswered for a couple of days and I was interested in hearing from what people had to say, I thought it had the potential to be an enlightening thread. When responses do finally start coming in within 30 posts it descends into mudslinging. Typical.

One thing I must say about this forum is I've become much more self-aware of the negative aspects of Fe within in myself and others. I know that I've done some of the shady shit people describe about Fe and quite frankly will probably do so again in the future. Some stuff I just brush off, but some stuff has opened my eyes to my behavior more instead of me just shrugging it off and saying "That's not me! That's not Fe!" I think yeah, I can see that happening.
 

simulatedworld

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I can't agree that Fi "projects". I just don't project or pretend to I know what other people are feeling and I've never met a Fi-dom who does. I don't think that is a Fi inherent trait, and I will continue to reject that assertion. It is in complete opposition to what empathy actually is, which is understanding other's expression of their feelings, even if foreign to your experience or if "wrong". You're not really empathizing if you only consider how you personally would feel.

Taking things personally is not the same as projecting. One has to do with your own feelings, the other has to do with the feelings of others.

bolded part = win

If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?
 

Amargith

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bolded part = win

If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?

They're picking up on your emotions yes, but the interpretation is their own. It's what happens when you forget, in your haste or due to stress, to consider who the person in front of you is and how they in the past have responded to that particular emotion and what they logically would do with that emotion and how they'd respond. And yes, it happens that your own emotions get jumbled up in there as well, ime, that their anger fuels your own, which tends to then mingle together, making it seem more intense than it really is, and making also the interpretation corrupted. It's hard to seperate those sometimes in the heat of it all, ime.

The initial reading was right, it just got lost in translation. It's what happens with Ti as well when it's being 'abused' to prove a point instead of being genuinly curious to see where the hypothesis will go once it gets put into practice and tested. Wishful thinking if you will. For us it's Wisfhul Feeling I am guessing.


Fwiw, I agree that SW's post was his typical standard NeTi style without any bad vibes to it. However, SW, you kinda have gotten unfortunately a bit of a rep, I fear, and you seem always ready to jump at Fi. At least, I personally also do find you vibing that out every time you're in a Fi-thread, even when you do in fact stay neutral and contribute valuable things. It's bound to make things a bit tense and to trigger a FiSi memory with some, knowing they can expect this from you. Not saying I agree with those that would be anticipating and jumping the gun on you doing this, but surely you can understand :)
 

Seymour

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bolded part = win

If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?

I think we are good at putting ourselves into other people's shoes, but it is still ourselves we are putting there. We can be good at building up a mental model of the other person's emotional state, but it's only as good as the data we have to draw upon (both about the individual and with other similar individuals). Our biggest pool of data is ourselves, and that's what we use to fill in the blanks. Of course projection is going to happen! Over time, projection gets tempered with actual experience and our model of the other person (and other people in general) becomes more accurate.

When I read your initial response, I did glance at who it was coming from. If an INFP had been that blunt, I probably would have thought they were upset. I work with lots of NTs, though, so I looked for actual emotional content in your post and there was none.

I think Fi does predispose one towards empathy (although it's not the only source for it), but it's imperfect and it's not magical. In the absence of information, projection can and will occur.

Ideally, being more type aware should make INFPs more aware NT-style bluntness, and make NTs more aware of INFP's tendency towards emotional projection. We INFPs can help by carefully looking for explicit emotional content when we think we detect some, and keeping in mind who is doing the speaking.

NTs can help by not choosing emotionally laden language unless they mean it (as simulatedworld did by using neutral language). If they want to bend over backwards, they can provide some emotional content so it won't be a blank screen for projecting upon. However, I think that's an unreasonable and unfair demand to place on NTs in general.

Anyway, I think a bit of patience of understanding go a long way. Seems like part of the point of a forum like this is to have to place to work through some of these misunderstandings and figure out how to deal with them.
 

Stanton Moore

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bolded part = win

If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?

I suspect thaat your total inability to see that you are so often seen as condescending and arrogant may be because you lack Fi, which may also explain why you don't know where it comes from.
 

Amargith

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Guys, I do have to agree in this case with Jennifer though. Let's pester SW at some other time, and having stand trial for this in his very own thread or somethign(ohh come on, you'd love the attention, SW ;)), and get on with the topic at hand.

His contribution in this thread was definitely not without merit.
 

Fidelia

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Depending on type, I know I've most certainly learned here that I must tailor my responses and reactions based on the information I have about the speaker. What would be very hostile coming from an INFP or an INFJ is often quite devoid of negative emotion coming from an NT. I drove my ESTJ boyfriend nuts by sometimes looking for deeper meaning when there wasn't any intended, just as it bothered me that he didn't read in between the lines with me. I also realized that some types learn more from focussing on differences while others learn more by starting from common ground and branching off. What I once would have taken offense to, I can now usually recognize as quite separate from me.

Like Seymour and Protean were saying, it is our interactions with different types that teach us most about our own pitfalls as well as make us more aware of how to interpret others behaviour, words and emotions more correctly. At the end of the day, we do have to rely on the other person as our main source of information about them, rather than ourselves.
 

OrangeAppled

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I don't think the projection we're talking about is associated with taking things personally. The projection to which I'm referring is the NFP's insistence upon how others seem to be feeling, and if you don't agree that this occurs, just look at the first page of this thread.

Maybe it's not purely a result of projection, but projection occurs because it's the easiest way to figure out feelings when the issue is emotionally puzzling. It seems like some times NFPs look for emotional connections when there really aren't any (and I bet many NFPs would argue that there are *always* emotional connections, even when others don't see them, but most other types would argue that that's not the case). You guys care about being empathetic and figuring out feelings, so maybe you just look too deeply for emotional signs. Therefore, in cases that are impersonal and emotionally neutral, you find correlations that aren't really there, and the easiest correlation to find with other peoples' feelings (or in this case, create?) is the one that you'd personally feel yourself. Thus the phenomenon of "projection."

Well, I can easily accept someone coming from a neutral angle when it's true. I'm actually not that interested in figuring out people's feelings. I usually only examine what is thrust on me and solicited from me. I prefer to remain untouched, not to have empathy stirred - that is tiring.

However, when there is a pattern of denying any emotion in the moment and then later admitting the Fi person was correct, then it's hard to take that person's denial seriously if they exhibit that very same behavior in the future. This is why I don't project - If I don't know someone well, I have no sense of who they are and cannot pretend to know; I can only go by what they express. If I know someone very well, that is the only time I may trust my instinct over their claims, because it's based on a consistent pattern of behavior I have noted. That's still rare because I don't push confrontation, and if someone says, "I don't feel that way", then I am content to leave it there. I've never seen an NFP insist that someone feels something they do not, so I imagine I am pretty typical. The insistence that we do that is tiring and needs to be dropped.

Then there is the issue of expression. Word choices, phrasing, vocal tones, facial expressions, etc, DO have clear connotations in every culture. I'd argue these are often Fe and Si determined, because I sure get grief for not always following them also. So if you exhibit behavior generally considered "angry" by the majority of people, you shouldn't be so surprised when people see you that way, even if it's not true. It is your responsibility to communicate yourself clearly and be aware of how you come across to others. Everyone has to do that, of any type.

Can someone please answer why Fi users (actually NFPs because SFPs aren't claiming this) want to claim so badly the Empathy Prize. Fi does not have a monopoly on empathy, Fi is not more predisposed towards empathy. These are character traits, these are learned traits, the are developable traits, not traits inherent to a cognitive function. Sometimes when people describe Fi it's like they just touch a person and this searing emotional pain just overwhelms them and they pass out on the floor from the power of it. It's comical! It doesn't even align with real life at all.

I've never heard anyone make these claims, especially your ridiculous description of how a Fi user feels empathy. No one is saying only Fi empathizes anyway. I disagree that certain functions are not predisposed to certain strengths though. Everyone can develop empathy, yes, but MBTI profiles note patterns in types, and that's why NFPs get tagged as being empathetic. There is a predisposition for certain traits in certain types, whether it is true of every individual of that type or not. How else would you type people?

Why the insistence on denying every positive attribute ascribed to Fi? Do you have anything positive to say about it? I think that's more of a challenge for some people here. Say something positive about NFPs directly related to their Fi usage - I dare you.

Can we have a discussion about functions without people getting all defensive and teary-eyed? What good does it do to only discuss the positives of a function and never the negatives?

It was going great til the ENTPs barged in. Back and forth discussion from Fe & Fi users, acknowledgment of weaknesses, etc. I personally don't feel a discussion has to be void of emotion to be valid anyway.


bolded part = win

If INFPs are not projecting their own emotions when they erroneously attribute everyone else's behavior to hidden emotional trauma, where are they getting this from?

Metaphorical application through Ne. It's called imagination and making very abstract connections, not direct comparisons. It's common for an INFP to trust theory over their own experience for the same reason. We prefer to look at the numerous possibilities over past experiences.
 
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