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  1. #151
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Maybe interpersonal and intrapersonal are better terms. One being concerned with the interaction and how it affects the individuals and the other being concerned with the internal feeling of the individuals and how that comes out in the interaction. Obviously, there is not a clear line there either. I just think one works inside to outside and the other outside to inside.
    Ni's job is to look within, past the surface. So in the case of INFJs (and possibly ENFJs), that description does not work; the INFJ's Fe has to take orders from Ni and is filtered through that lens. It could possibly fit as a stand-alone description of Fe, but no function works in isolation. Thus that description doesn't work for INFJs and their Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I still disagree, and I don't have a disparaging view of FJs or Fe, a few jokes here & there aside. If people want to look through all of 2000+ my posts, go for it.
    I'll go through your posts and PM you all the negative and postive posts about Fe and FJs (because I care so much ). Is that okay with you? I may be wrong on the ratio of positive and negative, but I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Hi LA! Spending time on your OTHER forum? Did anyone ever crack that mystery wide open?
    Hey aphrodite. Nope, just been offline. And no one's figured it out. Never will.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    Fe/Fi really confuses people huh? I don't really get it. Seems easy to me. I must be missing something.

    Just the last few pages on this tome about Fe....uhh!

    Fe is what I use to engage with you. I am interested in you. Not because I am socially obligated to be interested in you, but because, if I'm talking to you, I probably genuinely care about you, or am at least genuinely interested in being kind to you. Not for any ulterior motives. I feel your emotions, I see your anxieties as manifested in everything you do and convert it all into how you must be feeling. I listen to you. I feel warm toward you because of all this, and you feel me as warm.

    Fi is how I feel about things: Ideas, principles, constructs. What helps me decide how to proceed and in what direction I want to go. It keeps me consistent. Gives me integrity. Gives me boundaries. Helps me keep focused on myself so I don't give everything away.
    I like this. I wonder if others can agree with it.

  2. #152
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    OFFLINE!!! How horrible! How are you surviving? What up?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  3. #153
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Ni's job is to look within, past the surface. So in the case of INFJs (and possibly ENFJs), that description does not work; the INFJ's Fe has to take orders from Ni and is filtered through that lens. It could possibly fit as a stand-alone description of Fe, but no function works in isolation. Thus pretty much negating the veracity of that description for INFJs.
    Of course no person is one function and discussing the functions as separate entities is difficult because of it. Yes, I think that is stand alone Fe, and probably far more reflective of someone leading with Fe. Just as an INFP is looking to connect through means of Ne and is not totally self-absorbed and unable to see outside their own internal feeling.

    As far as ENFJs go (who I have more personal experience with than INFJs), I observe them displaying a great deal of insight to what is beyond the surface in people, but they focus on using it to create positive interactions. I think that's great and admirable, and I'm not sure why anyone would see it as "shallow".


    I'll go through your posts and PM you all the negative and postive posts about Fe and FJs (because I care so much ). Is that okay with you? I may be wrong on the ratio of positive and negative, but I don't think so.
    Hey, it's your time...


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I like this. I wonder if others can agree with it.
    Yes, I can....I think Fi is not that focused on people directly.

    Concerning empathy, it's very abstract for me. I feel detached when I empathize, yet involved. It's nothing "magical", but rather a challenge of sorts that engages me. Maybe my Fi is broken because I don't "read" people, but I think I can grasp what they express pretty well to put together a clear picture.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #154
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    You know a super simple personal understanding of Fe vs Fi is that Fe is that warm, outgoing even touchy feely quality in people. Fe is confidently coming up to strangers and hugging them.

    Fe and Fi irl from what Ive seen feel very different. Fi is often cold and prickly and awkward and self conscious itself unless buffered with other aspects.

    Fe works better in groups and more consistently and confidently expresses thoughts, desires, feelings, etc. Fi can be very particular and is expressed better/more easily 1 on 1 or in small groups and is inconsistent. Fi loops back on itself and thoughts of self/internal thoughts and feelings often interrupts or gets mixed in with feelings/thoughts of others that are getting expressed or need to be addressed (okay that was worded really badly Ill try again tomorrow). Thats why Fi dom users IRL can seem inconsistent and confounding.

    That was the most startling difference once I started meeting more EFPs and EFJs. (I already knew a lot of INFPs)

    Urgh, I'm sleepy now Ill reread later and change if need be. Not sure if this makes sense.

    I love how Fe feels irl. Fi is intense and even secretiv, Fe is effusive. The difference, for myself, between dating an INFP and an INFJ is huuuuuuuuge.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  5. #155
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Elephant in the room: Fe is directive.

    And that means... what?

    I know how Te is directive. It plus Fi produces a feeling that doing things in and of the world but against Te conclusions is wrong, stupid, dumb, wasteful, boring, irritating, offensive, etc. This consciousness tends me to make things come about in accord with the conclusions I have reached, either by doing it myself or being rude when others don't.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  6. #156
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    This thread has kinda...proven to me that explaining this to people just bites you in the ass. If a forum of people aware of other types and actually able to pinpoint the problem cannot even wrap their heads around it and figure this thing out, then how on earth are people irl who aren't into this ever going to understand and not judge. Don't get me wrong, I understand why but it's...yeah.

    I'm thinking of one more attempt, creating my own thread with strict rules, to get to the bottom of this. We'll see how that goes.
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  7. #157
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape. And here's a mercenary thought: I'd find a way to capitalize on this ability and harness it into something lucrative.
    If you made money off of it you would likely hurt others. Hurting others causes pain. You mirror and feel pain. FAIL (Key concept-you mirror what you PERCEIVE them to feel which is the inherent danger.)

    Not energy, no magic-subtle cues: facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, eye movements. I very rarely ever make direct eye contact. I dont have to. I'd suspect an Se user would see the here and now. An Ne user likely will be better at predicting future pain points.

    I hate this. Nothing to brag about here. No prize, no glory, just fucking pain and anxiety. That's why I am trying to find Fe. The bit I have found is heavenly. I can care deeply for them, but not bear their pain. I envy you in so many ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    This thing we keep calling "empathy" is radically subjective and particularized. Fi-style empathy often fails to account for the "big picture" which is accounted for by Fe. Fe-style empathy often fails to identify with the other.
    Fi is singularly focused. It can also neglect as it finds the "other" in the greatest pain, given it mirrors that great pain. I help the neediest while letting my nearest love ones bear mild discomfort. Had to correct this after an ISFJ pointed it out several years back. Its why ENFPs have so many pets.

    To think big picture I have to combine with NeTe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    There are a million reasons why your experience may not match up with theirs. There's always some presumption because there's has to be some assumption that your understanding of their emotions has some correspondence to their actual experience.
    So I guess I am a little confused. Do you guys actually have folks IRL who say "I know what you are feeling right now."? Or is it more "You look a little stressed, need anything?" sorts of comments? Or they try and argue about what you should feel and why you dont feel that way?

    I dont know how exactly what I feel matches, but with IXTJs, I skip words and just "be" with them. There is a matching of facial expressions, tones, gestures, a mutual understanding. It feels very natural so it would never occur to me to vocalize this. Once I understood the Fe/Fi divide, I actually can walk up to any IXTJ, bounce into their proximity, hug them and then skip away. They love it. They seek me out after knowing them for about a week to share thier emo with me. With the exception of a few very close Fe users I dont even attempt any emo bonding as I understand it will always feel "wrong" to them and be rebuffed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I personally believe that the boundaries between Fi and Fe are not as clear cut as they are made out to be. A lot of what is said about Fe can apply to Fi, and vice versa. Especially when Fe is paired with Ni, and Fi paired with Ne.
    I think they are distinct biological entities which can be used to a certain extent at the same time, but the ability to do that varies. I'd guess the INFJs are closer to it than anyone else. The results and external behaviors can overlap considerably.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm almost always sensitive to my environment, like, it's hard for me to stay happy in a room full of anger or sadness. The only way for me to block it is if I'm really absorbed in reading something, or if I'm in tertiary Te bulldozer mode because it conveniently blocks my empathy.
    Yes. Te blocks for a bit but when used this way leaves me hollow. As a kid I had no emotional connections as I think I lived in an INFJ shadow mode which blocked everyone else out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I know how Te is directive. It plus Fi produces a feeling that doing things in and of the world but against Te conclusions is wrong, stupid, dumb, wasteful, boring, irritating, offensive, etc. This consciousness tends me to make things come about in accord with the conclusions I have reached, either by doing it myself or being rude when others don't.
    Do you find you just say Fuck You and quit playing if people refuse to listen to Te? ie Apathy? Then watch them all bomb and just say "I told you so"

  8. #158
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Do you find you just say Fuck You and quit playing if people refuse to listen to Te? ie Apathy? Then watch them all bomb and just say "I told you so"
    Heck. I do that with Ti all the time.

    I can't invest in movements, projects, ideas I see as doomed from the start because they are not well thought out, and often my last internal comment is: "Idiots -- I told you it wouldn't work."

    Once I understood the Fe/Fi divide, I actually can walk up to any IXTJ, bounce into their proximity, hug them and then skip away. They love it. They seek me out after knowing them for about a week to share thier emo with me. With the exception of a few very close Fe users I dont even attempt any emo bonding as I understand it will always feel "wrong" to them and be rebuffed.
    LOL!!!! Yes, at best I'd be like... "So, uh, what did THAT mean? Why didn't they do it <in this other situation>? What's going on? How do I read this? Do they like me, really? Or are they having a stroke? Or...?"

    At worst, it would be like, "Uggh, get your <bleepingly bleep> hands off me until I understand what you're doing!"

    It makes me feel like Fe has more expectation of ways that are appropriate to express connection/emotion, and if you go into a personal/spontaneous display a la Fi, Fe has no idea how to read it. And it might signal something entirely different (e.g., "he doesn't respect my body space").

    Again, another Avatar example -- where Jake goes to spontaneously shake the tribe leader's hand in order to show he's friendly (his Fe ruleset) and the tribe almost throws him on the ground and slits his throat because it's seen immediately as a hostile act in their ruleset. If the rules get violated, or a behavior is outside the rules, the action cannot be interpreted correctly if at all; it's a void.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #159
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    [...]
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    There are a million reasons why your experience may not match up with theirs. There's always some presumption because there's has to be some assumption that your understanding of their emotions has some correspondence to their actual experience.
    So I guess I am a little confused. Do you guys actually have folks IRL who say "I know what you are feeling right now."? Or is it more "You look a little stressed, need anything?" sorts of comments? Or they try and argue about what you should feel and why you dont feel that way?

    [...]
    Sorry my statement was confusing... in context I was trying to respond to the whole "empathy is presumptuous" thing. I was pointing out that any empathy, sympathy or even intellectual understanding can only have an approximate view of what the other is feeling; every person's experience is ultimately uniquely theirs. I don't think that approximation is presumptuous at all... and I pointed out in my post that denying any commonality of experience and expression at all is ridiculous. I think the NTs just feel like we over-generalize the commonality and claim more knowledge than we do.

    So I was saying that empathizing isn't claiming special inner knowledge of the other person necessarily. It's just an inner echo of what emotion we perceive, correctly or incorrectly.

    I haven't heard anyone claim "I'm positive I know exactly what you are feeling despite your statements to the contrary." What I have seen is both cases of NTs (apparently accidentally) using emotionally laden language and other cases were xNFPs thought some neutral NT post was angry, because it boiled down to "you're wrong" with no emotional content and no softeners (which is just normal NT bluntness).

  10. #160
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Seeing as MBTI is a system (and I realize I'm not saying anything new here...but, just a reminder), I think people would do well to create a direct analogy between Fe vs Fi and Te vs Ti (since there doesn't seem to be the same degree of confusion with the later).

    But I urge you all to look past behavior when addressing these issues. These are world views. One strives to unify (Ji) and the other to separate into digestible chunks (Je). One is interested in the goal (Je) and the other in the means to that goal (Ji).

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