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  1. #141
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Fi does pick up on people's emotions, at least IRL. I can feel people's hostility bouncing off of them. When I was with my ex, sometimes I could literally feel him standing behind me or entering a room. I think trying to do that on the Internet might be a mistake, of course.
    Once again, I really don't think this is Fi, because I do the same thing. This is more Ne related... you pick up on small, unconscious cues, and from them instantaneously build an understanding of the situation. In fact, it might be something all extraverted Perceivers do.

  2. #142
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    J Fe users and P Fe users are going to be different in their sense of feeling as stable and authoritative, aren't they? Are they?

    Same difference for J/P Fi, the J's are gong to be more into using personal feeling as motive and the P users are going to allow perception the privilege of guiding them. So TJs dismiss, FPs empathise, FJ's guide, and TPs... em, tell you what they think?
    The issue with this is that FJs can and do empathize and FPs can and do guide. Even on this forum that is evident. I don't see such an absolute dividing line in those aspects.

  3. #143
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Threads like this get pretty confusing when I see some descriptions suggested for Fi or Fe embodied by people IRL of the other persuasion (Fe or Fi). What a headache.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #144
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I said I was leaving but I guess not!



    I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape. And here's a mercenary thought: I'd find a way to capitalize on this ability and harness it into something lucrative.

    I know for me, my empathy is bound to situations I've personally experienced. When someone says they have/had a family member who has cancer and all the effects of that I feel like I can safely say I empathize. When someone speaks of racism and sexism I empathize. I have once before in my life felt like I was going to murder someone. I've seen red before. Whenever my mother's face scrunches up in pain, I feel that to my soul. I've felt anger, love, lust, shame, disgust, happiness, contentedness, etc. so I'm fully aware that if I've felt it I can make a strong connection to how I've felt and the way another person feels/felt.

    I admit to not having the ability to automatically know what another person is feeling if I've never felt it or been in a similar situation. I understand that's not exactly what Fis/NFPs are saying, but that's the closest approximation I can wrap my head around at this point. I can ask, I can conjecture, I can speculate, I can watch their behaviors and body language and make educated guesses (which can be wrong!) but I don't know.

    Take this for example (and it's kinda melodramatic but bear with me), if I'm some villager in a war torn country and some American volunteer tells me they know exactly what I feel I would hope for them to fall into a dinosaur sized pile of manure. I'd feel insulted. What would they know of my life? The lesser virtue of sympathizing would be more suited in a situation like this. Sometimes it's more appropriate to admit you don't know what a person feels but still feel compassion for them anyway and stand beside them. Maybe you'll come to develop some empathy in a meaningful and more accurate way.

    And synarch, I agree; I find it highly PRESUMPTUOUS to even make such a claim although I don't find empathy itself presumptuous.

    I like these definitions of empathy although there are many out there and I bolded what I think are the most important parts:
    1. A sense of shared experience, including emotional and physical feelings, with someone or something other than oneself.
    2. The feeling or capacity for awareness, understanding, and sensitivity one experiences when hearing or reading of some event or activity of others, thus imagining the same sensations as that of those actually experiencing them.


    If NFPs want to assert that they have a greater capacity for/predisposed to/more concerned with/biologically hardwired to empathy according to the above then OK. It's not a competition and it will reveal itself somehow.

    What's interesting to me is why this thread sat here for a couple of days before anyone commented? Maybe people were reluctant to...obviously there's a lot of opinion about this topic anytime it's brought up it typically explodes into this.

    But why did it sit here? Maybe that's an indicator of something. Tesla's thread is winding down, people may not have wanted to answer because of that. Maybe people were reluctant to offend FPs? What would that be called? There hasn't been very much FJ comment on this thread and I wonder why that's so as well. Why was the first critical comment in this thread interpreted as an act of aggression?

    I believe the best way to get productive discussion about this is to specifically go to individuals who seem capable of calmly discussing this without offense and that in my experience has happened via PMs.

    I'm going to have to ask the NFPs I know if this is something they experience though.
    This thread sat stationary because peacebaby started it and no one responded. Until me, when I got back from my trip and responded and then, for whatever reasons, the thread started a rollin.

    I would like to think and hope that I am one of the NFP's that can talk about Fi without getting all huffy and offended. However, with that said, I'm afraid I'm likely to do a Ken Wilber and just say to anything "yes, thats right and important as far is it goes", "true but partial" as Ken always likes to say, to whatever gets brought up, and hence not really disagreeing with anyone, which for many people leads to no forward motion. Anyways...

  5. #145
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Threads like this get pretty confusing when I see some descriptions suggested for Fi or Fe embodied by people IRL of the other persuasion (Fe or Fi). What a headache.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I personally believe that the boundaries between Fi and Fe are not as clear cut as they are made out to be. A lot of what is said about Fe can apply to Fi, and vice versa. Especially when Fe is paired with Ni, and Fi paired with Ne.

  6. #146
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I've got to say OA, you do make many seemingly hostile and passive-aggressive comments about FJs. I try to not comment on them because I just chock it up to your experience, but you weren't willing to grant the same courtesy to others in these Fi threads. I otherwise think you are a very insightful poster with valuable contributions, but if I had read that thread and saw your comment, I would've asked the same question that protean asked.
    As I said in that thread referred to, the vast majority of the commentary I make on FJs and Fe is positive. I've made far more positive comments than negative ones, but I cannot say that for most of the Fi criticizers in this thread. It's something I've noticed for awhile, and I don't think I am being "too sensitive".

    I suppose I don't see criticism as valuable if it comes from someone who can only see what is negative, especially if we're discussing a cognitive function, which I think is neutral to begin with. It tells me there is too much personal bias clouding their perspective.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #147
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    The issue with this is that FJs can and do empathize and FPs can and do guide. Even on this forum that is evident. I don't see such an absolute dividing line in those aspects.
    You're right, there isn't.

    (And see what happens when you use Ti with Ni, an unwillingness to draw hard lines around what the world is... that's left up to Fe... which doesn't show up in the theorising, indeed perhaps doesn't show up at all until later, in the world of things taking place, when someone impinges, and needs to be guided back into place.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  8. #148
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As I said in that thread referred to, the vast majority of the commentary I make on FJs and Fe is positive. I've made far more positive comments than negative ones...
    I haven't been on this forum as much as I used to be, but that just is blatantly untrue of what I've read from you. I tend to read certain posters' posts and not much of others, and you are of the former group. Of your posts about FJs and Fe, the majority have been negative and/or passive-aggressively "joking," and clearly disparaging. Some have had some positive notes, but they tend to be added as an afterthought "Fe is this and this, but oh yeah, Fe users are so nice."

    I'm not attacking you, but anyone could look through your posts and see this is the case.

  9. #149
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I hear Fe and "the group/big picture" mentioned often together. But I think every Fe user is different. I personally do best one-on-one and I identify with others on that basis. I don't know if this could be related to Enneagram, but I'm a sx/sp variant... i.e. I have the social instinct last. So social objectives are often not in the forefront of my mind.
    Maybe interpersonal and intrapersonal are better terms. One being concerned with the interaction and how it affects the individuals and the other being concerned with the internal feeling of the individuals and how that comes out in the interaction. Obviously, there is not a clear line there either. I just think one works inside to outside and the other outside to inside.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I haven't been on this forum as much as I used to be, but that just is blatantly untrue of what I've read from you. I tend to read certain posters' posts and not much of others, and you are of the former group. Of your posts about FJs and Fe, the majority have been negative and/or passive-aggressively "joking," or clearly disparaging. Some have had some positive, but they tend to be added as an afterthought "Fe is this and this, but oh yeah, Fe users are so nice."

    I'm not attacking you, but anyone could look through your posts and see this is the case.
    I still disagree, and I don't have a disparaging view of FJs or Fe, a few jokes here & there aside. If people want to look through all of 2000+ my posts, go for it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #150
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Hi LA! Spending time on your OTHER forum? Did anyone ever crack that mystery wide open?

    Fe/Fi really confuses people huh? I don't really get it. Seems easy to me. I must be missing something.

    Just the last few pages on this tome about Fe....uhh!

    Fe is what I use to engage with you. I am interested in you. Not because I am socially obligated to be interested in you, but because, if I'm talking to you, I probably genuinely care about you, or am at least genuinely interested in being kind to you. Not for any ulterior motives. I feel your emotions, I see your anxieties as manifested in everything you do and convert it all into how you must be feeling. I listen to you. I feel warm toward you because of all this, and you feel me as warm.

    Fi is how I feel about things: Ideas, principles, constructs. What helps me decide how to proceed and in what direction I want to go. It keeps me consistent. Gives me integrity. Gives me boundaries. Helps me keep focused on myself so I don't give everything away.
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