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  1. #91
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    From the external viewpoint-typically the discrepant member ends up getting shunned until the group is collapsing. I am very guilty of disrupting the group consensus and typically I will be ignored-until proven right. I am trying to learn how not to speak up.
    That's more Ne than anything. It's worse with NeTi... not only do you disagree, but absent some other information, you know exactly how and when the boat's going to sink, and there's little you can do to save everyone else. That's the downside of Fe.

  2. #92
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I would say that feelings are direct personal experiences of our current inner state. Questions of "appropriate/inappropriate" sound like Fe/social convention to me, and "positive/negative/neutral" even seems weird and definitely judgemental to me. Feelings are a natural reaction to our situation and represent our internal state. I hope you feel bad/negative if you just killed someone for example. We may enjoy or not enjoy our emotions, but it is important to experience them as they are if they are going to be let go off and moved on from. Emotional processing. Not all emotions are pretty, some are pretty complicated. Covering over things or saying "I should feel THIS way so I will ignore or deny that I actually feel THAT way" creates emotional/psychological issues, IMO.

    Maybe this is just me, but I think of Fi as asking this question "is this honestly how I feel?" as opposed to "is my emotion acceptable?" or whatnot.
    That's the Fi emotional determination scale, I guess. To clarify: when I say "appropriate/inappropriate", I don't mean by social convention. Instead, I mean "is it appropriate toward the ends that I have?" By positive/negative, I mean "does it help me in the long run, or does it harm?"

  3. #93
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Don't feed him.

    These conversations on Fe and Fi go so well until some ENTP shows up.

    This is exactly what they want. Responses are usually along the lines of: "I'm not angry! Don't tell me how I feel! NFPs always ___ [whine about NFPs]. I know everything about everything, but you're just too emotional for this conversation to be productive!".

    Now back to the discussion, which was interesting.
    This made me chuckle. I will say that ENTP's can derail a thread pretty easily.

    I do think that Fi using can come off as scolding in some ways, though, whereas Fe seems to be a bit more urbane when applied. I'm not sure, though. Just the minutest trace of a thought there.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Can someone please answer why Fi users (actually NFPs because SFPs aren't claiming this) want to claim so badly the Empathy Prize. Fi does not have a monopoly on empathy, Fi is not more predisposed towards empathy.
    Interesting.

    Perhaps Fi is identification or attempted identification and embodiment of empathy. Whereas, Fe is empathy by way of recognizing the feelings of others without identification?

    For example, I find empathy to be presumptuous. So, I try not to empathize. I keep a respectful distance. Rather, I seek to provide support by recognizing what is needed under the emotion. Do you know what I mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    And as far as Fi laying a claim on empathy, I think that's pretty much bullshit too (read: pretentious). Any strong F types are going to be decent at empathizing. Hell, I'm an ENTP, and I still find myself feeling empathy for the downtrodden and melancholy, particularly the ones that are close to me. You don't have to use Fi to feel the emotional pains of others, so I definitely agree with you that empathy is not an inherent Fi trait; it's merely a skill that many Fi users care to develop because they put such a strong investment in any emotions whatsoever.
    I think empathy divorced from action is rather self-serving and dishonest, in general. So, I don't indulge in that either. For example, it may seem logical to feel pity or sadness for a homeless person, but for all I know they may enjoy living on the streets. It's not completely improbable. Likewise, unless I am sufficiently motivated to "do something" about homelessness, why should I engage in empathy? Because I am struck by disgust, pity, sadness, or the questions and conflicts the concept of homelessness stirs in me?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  4. #94
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Can you give me the mirror neuron ref?
    Sure:

    Mirror neuron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Science and Reason: Mirror neurons

    And here's an article from an aspie questioning if they have anything to do with empathy and autism or not:

    Much Ado About Mirror Neurons - Empathy, Autism, and Bias


    Anyway, I'm not sure that I buy that have anything to do with empathy, but they are a case of your own neurons involuntarily mirroring someone else's (fallibly and based on observation). No magic here, either.

    I agree with what much of what you said. I would guess that an overly empathic Fi is actually somewhat underdeveloped. I suspect we do not use it, due to pain or lack of security growing up-likely more common in enfps. As an adult when we try to use it or are forced to use it, we cannot block the sensory input. It also is not calibrated properly to the input it receives from the "other" thus we feel more or less pain than they feel. Also Ne makes it cycle and amplify-much like an NeTi will cycle upon thoughts perhaps?
    I have no idea if it has to do with level of development of a particular function or not. I think that's an interesting question. I sure don't think that kind of involuntary empathy is necessary for being an xNFP, though. Seems like some of us had aspects of it, and some didn't.

    I can cope well with an individual's pain-the pain of the masses can overwhelm me. My entp asks how I know that the pain I feel is what they feel. I have no idea. All I know is that I feel pain and anxiety.

    At work I had an office I'd say was as good as the CEO's. It had a giant window overlooking the oak trees out front without any poles, sidewalks or other obstructions like most other offices have. It was on the main drag where all the executives have offices.

    I traded it for a cube this last week as I could not handle the constant stream of traffic. Every face would carry stress, anxiety, emotion. I could not block it.
    That sounds like a drag, and must have been puzzling to your coworkers. While I'm not so hyper-sensitive now, I still get a tension headache if people are arguing nearby. I've learned to take a break and go for a walk, or I have to suffer for the rest of the day.

    [...]
    Also-realize for an NeFi not to "feel" would be much like an NeTi who stopped thinking....do you guys ever stop thinking?
    Exactly. Or like someone with good pitch being forced to listen to something off-key. You can't NOT react... but it's not supernatural.

  5. #95
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    That's more Ne than anything. It's worse with NeTi... not only do you disagree, but absent some other information, you know exactly how and when the boat's going to sink, and there's little you can do to save everyone else. That's the downside of Fe.
    Hmmm, I do that with NeTe, identify all the future potholes, and then can predict the future downfall, predict the future pain and FEEL the future pain of the other due to Fi when nobody listens.

    I have been drinking a lot more this year....

    That Te response was hysterical btw.

  6. #96
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post


    I think empathy divorced from action is rather self-serving and dishonest, in general. So, I don't indulge in that either. For example, it may seem logical to feel pity or sadness for a homeless person, but for all I know they may enjoy living on the streets. It's not completely improbable. Likewise, unless I am sufficiently motivated to "do something" about homelessness, why should I engage in empathy? Because I am struck by disgust, pity, sadness, or the questions and conflicts the concept of homelessness stirs in me?
    +3254460

    This is exactly what I mean when I say that to have healthy Fi, one must gather information from their outer world. To not do this results in a slew of bad crap. Thank you for the example.

  7. #97
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post

    Also-realize for an NeFi not to "feel" would be much like an NeTi who stopped thinking....do you guys ever stop thinking?
    I don't, but is that really a Ti thing?

    Does Ti mirror the ideas of others as a way to process the information like Fi mirrors emotive states?
    Hm, perhaps, but I'm not sure if that's totally accurate. I think Ti works by analyzing ideas; my ideas and the ideas of others, and maybe in order to analyze, Ti users some times have to take in the idea as if it's their own in order to get a sufficiently close-up view, but Ti is still a lot less personal than Fi. For us, it's not necessarily about mirroring ideas as much as just systematizing them and analyzing them for logical consistency from an objective lens. Fi is a lot more inclined to mirror emotive states than Ti is to mirror ideas simply because emotive states are by definition much personal more personal than ideas.

    I suppose you could make the argument that Ti is personal because Ti users hold a personal value system based on impersonal logic, and some times Ti users are emotionally convicted to such values, but that's about as personal as it gets.

  8. #98
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    LOL, I am!

    My mother told me that one of the most heartbreaking moments of her life was when she found out that Santa's not real. She said she vowed she'd never deceive her children like that.

    I also knew how to put a condom on a banana by 8.
    Man, I wish Jaguar were here to see our Santa Claus conversation. Maybe then he'd give some merit to induction-based predictions. Oh well.

  9. #99
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    +3254460

    This is exactly what I mean when I say that to have healthy Fi, one must gather information from their outer world. To not do this results in a slew of bad crap. Thank you for the example.
    You're welcome! I am your humble servant.

    To my mind, the process should be as follows:

    * Pang of emotional reaction
    * Check the emotional reaction for reasonability and consonance with reality.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #100
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I said I was leaving but I guess not!

    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    Interesting.

    Perhaps Fi is identification or attempted identification and embodiment of empathy. Whereas, Fe is empathy by way of recognizing the feelings of others without identification?

    For example, I find empathy to be presumptuous. So, I try not to empathize. I keep a respectful distance. Rather, I seek to provide support by recognizing what is needed under the emotion. Do you know what I mean?
    I don't know but I do know that at this point the ineffable, immaterial, indescribable Ni sounds substantially less mystic and obscure than this Fi people are talking about. Walking through crowds and picking up people's emotions? Having to move your office because of being bombarded with people's energy? If this is the case, I'm quite happy I have a natural mental boundary between myself and others because this sounds like emotional and mental rape. And here's a mercenary thought: I'd find a way to capitalize on this ability and harness it into something lucrative.

    I know for me, my empathy is bound to situations I've personally experienced. When someone says they have/had a family member who has cancer and all the effects of that I feel like I can safely say I empathize. When someone speaks of racism and sexism I empathize. I have once before in my life felt like I was going to murder someone. I've seen red before. Whenever my mother's face scrunches up in pain, I feel that to my soul. I've felt anger, love, lust, shame, disgust, happiness, contentedness, etc. so I'm fully aware that if I've felt it I can make a strong connection to how I've felt and the way another person feels/felt.

    I admit to not having the ability to automatically know what another person is feeling if I've never felt it or been in a similar situation. I understand that's not exactly what Fis/NFPs are saying, but that's the closest approximation I can wrap my head around at this point. I can ask, I can conjecture, I can speculate, I can watch their behaviors and body language and make educated guesses (which can be wrong!) but I don't know.

    Take this for example (and it's kinda melodramatic but bear with me), if I'm some villager in a war torn country and some American volunteer tells me they know exactly what I feel I would hope for them to fall into a dinosaur sized pile of manure. I'd feel insulted. What would they know of my life? The lesser virtue of sympathizing would be more suited in a situation like this. Sometimes it's more appropriate to admit you don't know what a person feels but still feel compassion for them anyway and stand beside them. Maybe you'll come to develop some empathy in a meaningful and more accurate way.

    And synarch, I agree; I find it highly PRESUMPTUOUS to even make such a claim although I don't find empathy itself presumptuous.

    I like these definitions of empathy although there are many out there and I bolded what I think are the most important parts:
    1. A sense of shared experience, including emotional and physical feelings, with someone or something other than oneself.
    2. The feeling or capacity for awareness, understanding, and sensitivity one experiences when hearing or reading of some event or activity of others, thus imagining the same sensations as that of those actually experiencing them.


    If NFPs want to assert that they have a greater capacity for/predisposed to/more concerned with/biologically hardwired to empathy according to the above then OK. It's not a competition and it will reveal itself somehow.

    What's interesting to me is why this thread sat here for a couple of days before anyone commented? Maybe people were reluctant to...obviously there's a lot of opinion about this topic anytime it's brought up it typically explodes into this.

    But why did it sit here? Maybe that's an indicator of something. Tesla's thread is winding down, people may not have wanted to answer because of that. Maybe people were reluctant to offend FPs? What would that be called? There hasn't been very much FJ comment on this thread and I wonder why that's so as well. Why was the first critical comment in this thread interpreted as an act of aggression?

    I believe the best way to get productive discussion about this is to specifically go to individuals who seem capable of calmly discussing this without offense and that in my experience has happened via PMs.

    I'm going to have to ask the NFPs I know if this is something they experience though.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
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