[NF] Can NFs be ruthless, cruel or evil?

[Seymour]

Ahh, this reminds me of a conversation I had with Jennifer and why she's more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and why I'm not.

Basically I was like people can't be that stupid, I truly believe people are smarter than that and since I believe they are I expect them to be.

She was basically like I believe people are that stupid and since they are I can cut them some slack.

[...]

This is kind of the dark underbelly of idealism, I think. The more positive your view of human nature, the less slack you tend to give people. If you think humans are naturally wise and intelligent, then stupid and foolish behavior pretty much HAS to be intentionally caused or inflicted somewhere up the line.

That's one problem I have with theology and belief systems that say that people are born naturally 100% good, nice, sweet and innocent. In my experience, we are born bundles of conflicting, often selfish desires and we have to learn (painfully) how to channel those tendencies productively and nondestructively.

I've learned that personally it works best for me to have low expectations so I can be pleasantly surprised. I tend to come across as a kind of an up-beat pessimist. Definitely not in the rose-colored glasses camp.

However, I've heard optimists get more done even though they typically have a less accurate conception of reality. Go figure.

 

[mr.awesome]

i believe we can be 'evil' so to say, but from what i have observed from myself and other infp's.. the negativity side is taken out and acted upon on themselves rather than others.

 

[The Outsider]

Yes, I think anyone can be.

 

[Charmed Justice]

The more positive your view of human nature, the less slack you tend to give people.

I think my idealism works the exact opposite. Seeing human nature in the positive is the reason why I give people "slack". We can be idealist about human nature and still be realistic about the diversity of human behaviors.

If you think humans are naturally wise and intelligent, then stupid and foolish behavior pretty much HAS to be intentionally caused or inflicted somewhere up the line.

But is it really idealistic to think that all people, at all ages and stages, are "wise" and "intelligent"? That kind of thinking just seems altogether grounded in a complete lack of understanding of humanity, and the subjectivness of those terms.

 

[Seymour]

I think my idealism works the exact opposite. Seeing human nature in the positive is the reason why I give people "slack". We can be idealist about human nature and still be realistic about the diversity of human behaviors.

There are a happy mediums, and you appear to have found one for yourself. On the other end of the spectrum, if one thinks human beings are irredeemably evil and idiotic, then there's no point in trying to improve any of them (including oneself). I think the "entirely bad" view leads to behaviors as negative as the "entirely good" view.

I also find the "entirely good" view dangerous on the personal level, because it leads to a definition of the self as entirely good. It thereby enables projection of all that is bad in oneself onto others or external forces.

But is it really idealistic to think that all people, at all ages and stages, are "wise" and "intelligent"? That kind of thinking just seems altogether grounded in a complete lack of understanding of humanity, and the subjectivness of those terms.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that. In fact, if anything, I was trying to argue for a realistic view of human nature. Some of the most idealistic philosophies have led to some of the worst regimes and practices because they didn't take real human nature into account.

I'm also not opposed to idealism in general and it has certainly spurred a huge number of positive changes over the course of human history. I just think idealism should be tempered with pragmatism and compassion. As Churchill said, "No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism."

And I do think keeping that in mind is good for us Fi-doms in general. We can be so idealistic and exacting that we forget to cut ourselves (usually) and others (sometimes) some slack.

 

[alexx]

When it comes down to it - I think any type can be a douche. Saying that, I may not understand well, but isn't Fi and Fe what makes us in tune with others emotions? I would think the ability to pick up on that and know when we create conflict or hurt someone we are the most likely type to make it STOP.

Maybe I'm reading it all wrong - this stuff gets confusing - however I would think being an idealist that you would really want the best for those around you (At least most of us).

 

[JocktheMotie]

I think MBTI is frequently misinterpreted as a set of character traits, when it really describes your set of cognitive processes. While these processes will lead to certain types exhibiting common behavioral tendencies so as to make behavioral typing pretty useful, any and all actions are permitted by the theory: just the underpinning psychological motivations, justifications, and perceptions will be different across types.

 

[Ione]

reply:

I, unfortunately, know the truth.

The most cruel-and even evil-person i met was an INFP.

But it was simply a twisted version of herself. From her childhood experiences to a recent incapacitating loss she suffered through, everything only changed her more. Her personality, on good days, would be that of an INFP. But on other days she would revert to a shadow of the kind person she used to be. She wasn't just cruel to everyone--it was a ruthlessness that I'd never seen nor heard of before. Being an INFP just reinforced the way she did things. Every word hurt her as much as it hurt everyone else, and the way she could understand emotions--her empathy--was only used to slam down others, cause more and more pain on higher and deeper levels.

I have to admit it was the saddest thing i'd ever seen, because while everyone else hated her for it, i saw that it was a double-sided cruelty. she did it to hurt herself just as well. she saw life as an opportunity to get even with everyone and atone for everything she'd done.

And that, my friends, is ruthless.

 

[ergophobe]

I think MBTI is frequently misinterpreted as a set of character traits, when it really describes your set of cognitive processes. While these processes will lead to certain types exhibiting common behavioral tendencies so as to make behavioral typing pretty useful, any and all actions are permitted by the theory: just the underpinning psychological motivations, justifications, and perceptions will be different across types.

FTW!! Exactly. Outward actions may be the same but the motivations and decision making calculus completely different.

For the OP, yes, all of the above, like the other temperaments.

 

[Thinkerninja]

xD. I've thought of what it would be like and being evil alot, hehe. It doesn't mean I'll become evil. Exactly described here on the outside, and possibly evil on the inside.. mwahaha.

 

[yvonne]

i think NFs can be very cruel... feelings can turn against you and the people you care about. that's why it's important to control them with logic and balance yourself... and also learn to understand them. let them guide you, but not lead you. also, idealism, i've found, is not the ideal way to look at the world. it's better used when it's only an attitude, but not a way of life, or a real belief. reality is not ideal, but ideals as themselves are very important. it's just important to learn to separate the two.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Cruel. Oh yes. Ruthless...more like selfish maybe. I could imagine an INFP gone wrong, to imagine the world owed them some thing. Or choose an entirely misguided cause to campaign for.
Maybe one of those flawed evil guys...one who could quite happily tourture some one all day (and I do believe an INFP could be good at this if they viewed it as an art form, some times that sensitivity can be used for bad too.), but rush home to feed their beloved cat, or rescue animals using ill gotten knowledge to heal them. I could full well imagine an evil INFP doing that.
Warp those values a bit, and you would get a credible evil person.

 

[yvonne]

yeah... i often feel like NFPs are a bit clueless... living in their imaginary world. i like visionary, artistic, deep people and caring people... and intuition about feelings can be a very good thing, but it can become distorted, delusional and selfish... emotionally demanding... reclusive... scattered.

we can all be clueless in our own ways, though.

 

[KDude]

If NF's sincerely believe the things they say, then I commend them. And if they actually believe in the ideals they espouse, then they couldn't possibly be evil.

Unfortunately, I've always had this.. clown.. living inside of me. Even when I'm inclined to do good things, sometimes I'm first inclined to be laugh. Not always, but it happens. I might giggle at people falling and even hurting themselves before I expressed concern and picked them up. I can't help it. And I've done worse than that, but that's beside the point.

Anyways, I'm willing to believe NF's are sincere, and that their ideals encompass every aspect of their lives. I'm learning to not take that away from them, to not call anyone a hypocrite... just because I don't see the potential in myself.

 

[yvonne]

^ that was a very insightful post. no one is perfect, or should be expected to be. it's all about trying and learning to live with each other and ourselves.

 

[Moiety]

I might giggle at people falling and even hurting themselves before I expressed concern and picked them up.

See, that's one of those things that are so common in people and don't even register in my mind. Just the part of the brain that would be usually triggered isn't. It's instinctual really.

 

[ReadingRainbows]

Ahh, this reminds me of a conversation I had with Jennifer and why she's more inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt and why I'm not.Basically I was like people can't be that stupid, I truly believe people are smarter than that and since I believe they are I expect them to be.

I'm like this as well. My J function is up there. I think fucked up Fs are trouble in general because of the tendency to become emotionally manipulative. But NFs take the cake because they tend to play masquerade (Edgar recommened an amazing book about this called "Survival Games Personalities Play" that described this) and can fool you in a heartbeat with sufficent motivation (especially with people who are not expecting it, conditioned or groomed type stuff) Also please take into account 1 in 25 people fit the diagnosis criteria for APD (Antisocial Personality Disorder Aka Sociopathy) which is all about brain chemistry and has nothing to do with a specific personality type. I also have come to the conclusion that people see what they want to see, and will be more quick to gravitate to what is pleasing then what is not pleasing when given an option (even if the truth is staring them in the face).
Just my two cents.

 

[ElizaJane]

A good friend of mine is an ENFP and I'm amazed at his levels of empathy. There was this youtube video of a shark with retarded teeth and it was hilarious so I showed it to him. This one: YouTube - Shark with funny teeth

And guess what? He didn't like it. He said he felt bad for the shark. lol

I completely relate. I feel sorry for nearly everyone and everything — even inanimate objects. The other day I was at the store and I almost bought this one tomato, but at the last second I noticed it was a little bruised on one side. I put it back with the other tomatoes, and for a few minutes after that I felt sorry for the tomato. The purpose of its short little life was simply to be bought and eaten by us, and instead it sits rejected on the palette. I almost went back and bought it. I know that's all completely unreasonable and that the tomato isn't conscious, but I can't help those thoughts.

On the other hand, I can be evil toward a person — but only if I believe the person was evil first.

 

[Rainne]

uh, yes.

 

[Craft]

I'll be speaking in extremes and I don't know if any is even slightly true:

A Feeler can be very nice or very cruel. Likewise, A Judger can be very responsible or very despotic.

A Thinker does not care. A Perceiver does not care.