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  1. #51
    morose bourgeoisie
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    'Evil' behavior, or antisocial behavior in general, is almost always caused (or exacerbated) by truama, and as so, it is the result of a distortion of cognitive functions. So there is no way to accurately specify the cognitive preferences of an indiviual effected by it.
    For instance, PTSD is just such a distortion. It has specific features, and may vary slightly based on I/E, but not much. This means that the effects of truama are independent of cognitive function. Usually the person goes into a fight/flight mode of sorts, which represents a more infantile way of dealing with the world.
    So can NF's be Evil or antisocial? Of course. They respond badly to truama just like to everyone else, maybe moreso, since we seem to be sponges for such shit. And given our abilities to see through people to their true motivations, we may have an easier time manipulating others to our aims.

  2. #52
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I suspect every MBTI type is capable of anything, so NFs are only incapable of cruelty if you define the category as only those people who do not act cruelly.

    A ruthless person is unlikely to be transformed by that compassion in their life, and so it is not a means to an end, but it still replaces some kind of void created and reveals the empty power ruthlessness represents. Cruelty can only exist as a reflection, a misplaced mirage, or a form of blindness that must dismiss reality in favor of seeing Other as not entirely real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    ...But to hurt someone deliberatly with an element of suprise and without remorse you will need alot of thinking. Since thinking allows you to see a person as a object that needs to me removed (or whatever).
    By this I mean that you don't pay any attentiion at to their feelings and you don't care about their llife story at all. Plus you don't see how much damage you can do to people that love this person by harming him/her. Actually you see but you don't care since he/she is standing in your way.
    I'm curious if self is viewed in this same manner, or if the feelings and life story of self are seen as significant. I would think the most objective position is to see Self as equivalent to Other. In the same way that feeling a connection to a friend creates a subjective framework that can defy reason in favor of protecting that connection, the same could be said of self. It can be demonstrated that one human being is equivalent to another. To prefer Self to Other only on the basis that Self is the vantage point and consciousness from which an individual views the world is the core of subjectivity, since that is the core of personal intention. To be free of personal intention might not result in empathy or a connection to others, but it must view equivalent beings without preference for self. What do you think?
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 12-29-2009 at 07:41 PM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #53
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post

    Is it possible for you to turn off or ignore your logical analysis sometimes? If it is, then it's possible for NFs to turn off or ignore their empathy when it suits them.
    A simple but very effective point.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    'Evil' behavior, or antisocial behavior in general, is almost always caused (or exacerbated) by truama, and as so, it is the result of a distortion of cognitive functions. So there is no way to accurately specify the cognitive preferences of an indiviual effected by it.
    For instance, PTSD is just such a distortion. It has specific features, and may vary slightly based on I/E, but not much. This means that the effects of truama are independent of cognitive function. Usually the person goes into a fight/flight mode of sorts, which represents a more infantile way of dealing with the world.
    So can NF's be Evil or antisocial? Of course. They respond badly to truama just like to everyone else, maybe moreso, since we seem to be sponges for such shit. And given our abilities to see through people to their true motivations, we may have an easier time manipulating others to our aims.
    I don't think this is true. Different temperaments react completely different from others to stress/trauma. We all have our own ways of dealing with stress and anxiety. People who are ESTP's for example most likely cope with anxiety in extremely similar ways as each other, but extremely different ways than people who are INFJ's. For example, an INFJ who had a terrible childhood will at the worst grow up to be very avoidant, depressed, and self destructive. They will be an extreme form of INFJ. An ESTP stemming from the exact same childhood will at the worst grow up to be narcissistic, antisocial, and sadistic. They will be an extreme form of ESTP.

    If what your saying is true everybody who had any trauma as a child would become a sociopath. There's a reason there are a number of personality disorders.

    So in my opinion NF's can be evil, but in a self destructive manner. There are many forms of evil.

  5. #55
    Senior Member BlahBlahNounBlah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny View Post
    I don't think this is true. Different temperaments react completely different from others to stress/trauma. We all have our own ways of dealing with stress and anxiety. People who are ESTP's for example most likely cope with anxiety in extremely similar ways as each other, but extremely different ways than people who are INFJ's. For example, an INFJ who had a terrible childhood will at the worst grow up to be very avoidant, depressed, and self destructive. They will be an extreme form of INFJ. An ESTP stemming from the exact same childhood will at the worst grow up to be narcissistic, antisocial, and sadistic. They will be an extreme form of ESTP.

    If what your saying is true everybody who had any trauma as a child would become a sociopath. There's a reason there are a number of personality disorders.

    So in my opinion NF's can be evil, but in a self destructive manner. There are many forms of evil.

    Everything within the standard range of human action (this includes cruelty) has been engaged in by a member of every personality type. If you want to discuss majority, that's one thing ... but all ESTPs do not react the same way to trauma. If it were that easy to predict an individual's behavior based on nothing but a theory, MBTI would be much more useful.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Synapse's Avatar
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    Isn't there a saying the people you know the most are the cruelest of all.

    Whats worse logical cruelty or emotional cruelty.

    Darkest of hearts are like shrapnel exploding from within, once combusted who understands the aftermath of a melt down that is least expected.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benny View Post
    For example, an INFJ who had a terrible childhood will at the worst grow up to be very avoidant, depressed, and self destructive. They will be an extreme form of INFJ.
    I disagree. I think that having a bad childhood often strenghtens the Fe in NFJ types (in fact, I suppose it might create it in a way), but you have to keep in mind that Fe can be a very effective weapon if misused. I've encountered an INFJ woman who had a very bad and lonely childhood followed by other trauma later in life, resulting in permanent anxiety and extreme neediness (= VERY unhelathy Fe) by which she completely overwhelmed her youngest daughter. The woman is a dominat figure in her family, she is a skilled manipulator, and I suppose she'll never really let the daughter go and live her own life. Her out-of-control Fe tells her that her daughter is somewhat obligated to be her company, and she actually doesn't consider the girl's own needs and desires at all. I guess the woman doesn't behave like that intentionally, but taking into consideration that the daughter cannot handle or even realize her own emotions at all, it indeed comes across as cruel and ruthless towards her.

    I just wanted to point out that unhleathy Fe is not only turned against its user, but also (and I suppose mainly, because this wasn't the only time I saw an NFJ doing something like that) againts those close to them. In that case, it's not only self-destructive, but universally destructive, and can result in ruthlesness and cruelty (the insidious, passive-aggressive kind).

  8. #58
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synapse View Post
    Isn't there a saying the people you know the most are the cruelest of all.

    Whats worse logical cruelty or emotional cruelty.

    Darkest of hearts are like shrapnel exploding from within, once combusted who understands the aftermath of a melt down that is least expected.
    The problem with what you describe as logical cruelty is typically passive-aggression in the guise of reason, and yes, that is a rather unbreakable barrier for the person who uses it and for anyone with whom they interact. Giving completely over to emotion without referencing reason or consequences is also destructive. The inability to integrate the hardware in the brain that can be measured to produce emotional responses in all humans by suppressing those emotions and expressing them with a false detachment is also destructive, but because it has its own method of justifying itself, can perhaps be moreso. My impression is that the suppressed destructive emotion has more capacity to be misdirected than the childish, unfiltered outburst. For example, if someone has an oppressive, dysfunctional mother, the unfiltered emotion will probably react directly to her without regard to appearances or consequences. The suppressed response will direct the rage elsewhere towards a future girlfriend or wife. It is important to know what is felt and find a way to both filter and express it. I suppose it is a lifetime struggle to achieve in a healthy manner.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  9. #59
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I am both the child in the bed and the monster under it. I walk this line not only to protect myself from the world; but the world from myself, as well.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  10. #60
    Senior Member Lurker's Avatar
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    Certainly.

    Also, I noticed this hadn't been done yet, so....



    fear the wrath of the failed artist. Honestly, I do think Hitler was a rather messed-up INFJ. /understatement

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