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  1. #51
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    There's no need to apologise for other members of your type. There are actually over 500,000,000 other members of your type. Some are probably murderers, rapists, serial killers... It means nothing about you. Some are champions of peace, world changers, mentors, comedians... And others are both.
    You jest.... surely...


    We are all the same. Just deal with it man.

  2. #52
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I just read the OP and it reminded me of how prevalent game playing is in social interaction. Vindictiveness might be part of it, but also if there is a gender difference, there is some precedence for the guy to always maintain the upper hand. A guy could act out that behavior not out of vindictiveness, but to maintain control over the situation. It's a way of playing with the power and vulnerability that results from attraction.

    The way I interpret it is that by your not showing up, he felt vulnerable that you weren't as interested as he was. By him not showing up once he verified you were going to swim, he places you in the same position. If you are not interested, then he regains his ego and pride. If you are interested, then you will have a feeling of missing him. I think some people see that as strengthening the feeling in the other person by making them vulnerable.

    I think most people engage in that sort of game playing as they are getting involved in a relationship and then after it is established. My understanding is through observation and confusion as I am completely unable to comply and engage in that sort of thing. It's quite alien, but also common. I do think it is more about social power typically than vindictiveness.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    I dont think you should want to change your type. I LOVE your type! I really do.

    I'm just learning to deal with some of the traits of the ENFP. Trust me we INTJ's have plenty of traits to be unproud of as well
    My question for you:

    Considering the dishonesty in how he has acted do you still consider him a suitable partner? It's clear to me that if you don't you'll need to cut the apron strings.

    If you do, I'm not sure what I would choose to do in that situation and I really don't envy you the task. ENFPs can play with the very fabric of our souls on occassion. I would to be careful as he sounds a little immature.

    Otherwise, Good Luck!

  4. #54
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    My question for you:

    Considering the dishonesty in how he has acted do you still consider him a suitable partner? It's clear to me that if you don't you'll need to cut the apron strings.
    I know he feels bad about what he did. I threw it in his face over and over again. Told him he broke my heart with a smirk...said he never meant to (it was genuine). I think he really likes me. We just have some differences in values that he probably feels are not worth leaving his current "girl" or "distraction" for. I can see his inner struggle at times. I'm sure he thinks about it often.

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    If you do, I'm not sure what I would choose to do in that situation and I really don't envy you the task. ENFPs can play with the very fabric of our souls on occassion. I would to be careful as he sounds a little immature.

    Otherwise, Good Luck!
    Yes, he is quite immature. But I've never been taken aback before by anyone the way I have with him. It's the strongest I've ever felt about anyone. I'm just trying to live in the present and enjoy his company as a friend. It's all I can do. He leaves to another state in a couple of months anyway. So maybe that'll make my life easier

  5. #55
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
    Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

    How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?
    In a long term relationship I would suggest educating the enfp. Explain to them that you will not always exhibit strong signs of attention or caring externally, the way an enfp would, but that you still care very deeply-THUS they dont need to constantly dig for attention to reassure themselves you care. I did not understand INTJs until I had met one, then learned about MBTI. When dealing with this silly vindictive behavior-if you think the person really likes you-kinda poke at them just a bit, and call them on being a bit silly.

    An example of me being vindictive:
    I knew a boy for several years and was actually had been friends for awhile. We went out for beers a few times, shared books back and forth, and sort of flirted. I ended up a having a few too many and spending the night with him.

    He didnt call me at all or interact for a few weeks. We had experienced a bit of a misunderstanding about our mutual interest-I thought he wanted some sort of relationship and he thought it was just a hook up. Even understanding our mutual misunderstanding, I explained he hurt my feelings and I told him I'd avoid him for a few weeks. I havent spoken to him in three months and counting. The "counting" is the vindictive part. I see him at work all the time. He looks at me and smiles or even seeks me out, and I minimize interaction. He doesnt get the fun NeFi anymore, just a polite front.

    He failed the Te test? I dunno, it is all very childish and even immature, but some part of me is quite strict about it.

    Funny, the front would dissolve IF he called me on it. If he showed up in my office, poked fun at me a little, the whole mess would melt, and I would just giggle a bit. "Oh, you caught me, huh?"

  6. #56
    Member sunshinEnfp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post


    I noticed you were Enneagram 7. Im pretty sure this ENFP is also a 7. Perhaps there is some correlation there.

    Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
    Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?

    How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?
    I am a 7 as well. Anyway, to answer some of your questions...

    Should one give in to the ENFP's attention craving ways?
    Does it frustrate you if they dont? Or does it make you feel insecure about whether the other person likes you?


    YES, YES, YES! I read this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    Funny, the front would dissolve IF he called me on it. If he showed up in my office, poked fun at me a little, the whole mess would melt, and I would just giggle a bit. "Oh, you caught me, huh?"

    And I totally agreed! Going back to that friend I discussed before... I actually started avoiding her because I could not make up my mind if I still wanted to be close friends with her--I felt like her values and mine did not match up anymore. Anyway, even though I was avoiding her, "punishing" her, I wanted her to step up, to contact me, and to CALL ME OUT on what I was doing. Show some emotion! Instead, she acting like everything was okay, which just made me more upset. Finally, one day, she showed an actual hint at frustration with me. I was upset for a second, and then relieved: finally, I realized, she was starting to show she CARED.

    I think this comes from the fact that in spite of ourselves, us ENFPs wear our hearts on our sleeves and we wish that other people would do the same. We (or at least, I) am not the best at reading people (when I am directly involved) because I get so caught up in my own web of emotions, so if they are not being blatant about how they feel, it drives me crazy and I just wonder: WHAT'S GOING ON? HOW DO YOU FEEL? DO YOU FEEL THE SAME AS I DO?

    How does it make you feel when the other person doesn't react at all --> to your 'punishment' or vindictive behavior?

    Of course, it's immature to be "punishing" other people--but let's be honest, I do it anyway--VERY RARELY, only when I am hurt, and it's usually with people I am close to. And like I said, I can drop it really fast once I realize that they care. But if it seems like they don't... if they continue to ignore or not react, the more frustrated I get to the point of possibly dropping them from my life because I feel like they obviously don't care--so why should I?

    I think at the end of the day, ENFPs need constant reassurance. Because we are so emotional, we know that feelings can change--ours do all the time. We go back and forth and find it hard to make a decision. For this reason, we are constantly questioning other people's emotional attachment to us because we know that their feelings may change as well. We just want to know that you care. It could be the littlest things and you might not even need to go out of your way to let us know, but we just need those signs. We're constantly checking and scanning the environment to see how you feel about us. When you are cold or you do something that seems like you don't like us anymore, we may jump to conclusions or be hurt pretty easily. But if you show us that it's okay, we're fine again and we bounce right back and are back to loving you and showering you with affection. At least, that's how I am.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Yes, he is quite immature. But I've never been taken aback before by anyone the way I have with him. It's the strongest I've ever felt about anyone. I'm just trying to live in the present and enjoy his company as a friend. It's all I can do. He leaves to another state in a couple of months anyway. So maybe that'll make my life easier
    I understand; hopefully when he moves on you won't be stuck on him and able to start thinking about other partners. Generally people don't realise how all consuming the infatuations of an INTJ can be; we seem to be too honest and direct not to want who we want.

    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinENFP
    I think at the end of the day, ENFPs need constant reassurance. Because we are so emotional, we know that feelings can change--ours do all the time.
    This is a constant worry for INTJs in ENFP relationships as we are fixed and don't change so we feel that you sometimes don't value us (as much) because your feelings continually change.

  8. #58
    Senior Member thescientist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Generally people don't realise how all consuming the infatuations of an INTJ can be; we seem to be too honest and direct not to want who we want.
    you read my heart. Im glad someone can relate.

  9. #59
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Oh TheScientist - what are you still doing with this joker???? Kick him to the curb girl! You don't "friends" like this!

    This situation has 'emotional TnT' written all over it.

    You remind me a bit of an INTJ I know irl - she also has an ex who wronged her and people would never say she is the most attached person - but she totally gave the ex a pass and tries to keep the ex in her life. For reasons vaguely explained. Basically, she likes her ex. A lot.

    I think I can relate with your situation because of the shared "inner child" thing with INTJs as well as ENFPs. I have also tried very hard to keep bad apples around because of strong attraction.

    Bad idea.

    I like Happy Puppy's idea of trying to educate the ENFP.

    But really, I think you are and have been WAAAAAAY too nice on him. And it is completely, utterly illogical so I know you realllllllly like him...

    I wish you the best (but seriously, in the short term tell him to wise up)
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescientist View Post
    Are you guys normally vindictive? Or is this a sign of an immature ENFP? OMG It drives me batshit insane.
    First,
    It's like tit for tat or "oh yeah? i'll show you!". And then they get angry when I call them children! :rolli:
    Because he had hurt me in the past (led me on, lied to me, etc)..this was my way of proving to him that I was OVER HIM (yeah right :ouch and that my life did not revolve around him, even though we're friends.



    Second, I'd probably say "it's a sign of an immature ENFP," but I wouldn't deny the tendency. Far from it.

    This one actually involves an INTJ, too, many a year ago. We actually were in a relationship. Not to say anything about the type as a whole, but.. over time, she became insanely critical and demanding, and I was getting more and more insecure. When I called her on her tendencies, she'd turn it back on me. It was as if she could dish it out, but she couldn't take it.

    I actually came to resent her over time, even though, strangely enough, I was still there for her. I wanted out, but couldn't bring myself to end it. When we finally did end it, I was stupid and immature and, primarily out of a lack of self-esteem, wanted her back. In response, she'd completely shut me out of conversations, send me blunt and hurtful emails, and not acknowledge me, all of which hurt me even more. What's worse is that we saw each other almost every day until she moved.

    But then she started trying to talk to me again. I reluctantly accepted, because I couldn't bring myself to just bluntly shut her out. In fact, I pretty much knew exactly how to steer our conversations to bring up very subtle jabs at her. She asked me how work was going; I very casually brought up, among other things, the promotion that I'd just received, knowing full well how she'd feel about it. It was pretty clear that she was hurt; she responded with a very meek, "oh, congratulations." This is just one of many examples of this kind of conversation.

    A few months later, she invited me out to lunch with some other folks via text message. I'd deleted her number from her phone previously, but I deduced that it must be her because of the area code. Regardless, I said that I'd accept but also asked, "who is this?" Well, during that lunch, I barely spoke a word to her, but I did talk to most everyone else. Oh, and casually brought up my new relationship in those conversations, with her clearly in earshot.

    When she moved away, she initiated the "goodbye" and I clearly rushed it, with the insinuation that I had more important things to do. This one was more me trying to protect myself than to hurt her, though.

    Basically, I played to the fact that she still trusted me. I knew what our dynamic actually was, and I knew what she thought it was. I played to her perception of me that, because of my career choice, I must be socially inept and not know what I was doing when it came to other people.. so, whoops; these were all just social blunders

    This was a lot more "love/hate" than I let on, actually. Most every time I committed one of these "social blunders," I was pretty honest with myself and I knew my motivations. I knew this was just me getting back at her, being unfairly vindictive and unable to let her transgressions go, but I made the conscious decision to commit them anyway. So, to "make up for this," when I was the one to initiate our conversations, I was a lot nicer to her; I obviously still cared about her. It was kind of a strange dynamic overall, which probably confused her even more.

    I will say that she's probably the only person I've reacted to in this harsh of a fashion and for so long. It takes a lot to "cross" me in such a big way. And since I had learned how hurt and how vengeful I can get, and that I know how to hurt other people in such a way, I know exactly how to avoid it. In fact, I feel compelled to avoid it, because I virtually never feel like I should "hurt" another person. (I can and do, however, still hold subtle grudges--something that I'm working on.)

    Throughout this whole episode, I slowly came to the realization that what I was doing was wrong. I'd think of how to "hurt" her, and I just plain couldn't go through with it. So, yeah; it's a sign of immaturity. But, for the most part, I think it can be surpassed when our value systems and moral integrity finally stand up to our vindictiveness.

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