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  1. #11
    Senior Member alexx's Avatar
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    The evil grape looks very Christmasy.

    89% Extroverted ~ 68% Intuition ~ 84% Feeling ~ 89% Perceiving
    Enneagram: 2w1 SO/SP Socionics: ENFp
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    Se 30.4% Si 19.1% - Ne 38.4% Ni 26.4% - Te 23.1% Ti 20% - Fe 46.4% Fi 35.8%
    Sanguine | Phlegmatic
    Right Brain Dominant

  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    So I was talking with my entp friend.

    She poised a very good question.

    I can tell her the negative aspects of the past, how those negatives may play out in the future, and what we need to avoid and improve upon. This could be a work or personal scenario.

    Then she asked "What did we do right? What did we improve?" My mouth gaped. I dunno. She said this is the response she always gets when she asks ISTJs/ENFPs this question-the gaping mouth. "Errrrrr......" My mouth is still gaping. I dont remember what got better, what improved.

    I do KNOW what not to do next time though. Much more so than she does.

    Is this common to Fi users?

    Do you remember what the improvements were or does your mind instead focus instead on the negatives encountered and how to improve them in the future?
    Interesting question, to me at least, since I already know I have the INTJ unwillingness to effuse positivity: that done right can have a benign nod and that done wrong can be treated to a caustic rant dismissing your ability to even tie your shoe laces.

    To spend time identifying what people did right is to create a current feeling of achievement between people. Sounds like Fe. It presumably has something to do with future work in that satisfaction will be built on between the people and the things they're doing great together. Maybe, you don't know you did right until everyone else knows you did right?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #13
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Interesting question, to me at least, since I already know I have the INTJ unwillingness to effuse positivity: that done right can have a benign nod and that done wrong can be treated to a caustic rant dismissing your ability to even tie your shoe laces.

    To spend time identifying what people did right is to create a current feeling of achievement between people. Sounds like Fe. It presumably has something to do with future work in that satisfaction will be built on between the people and the things they're doing great together. Maybe, you don't know you did right until everyone else knows you did right?
    Yeah, from her perspective it was about how good the new systems in place where (ENTP systems builder at work) and how groups were interacting productively (wee little Fe?).

    I like, um yeah, that's all nice, but what about that BAD BAD BAD thing we did, that we CANNOT do again EVER EVER EVER!!!!! I looked at from a Te metrics perspective-what did we produce and was it done efficiently? POS and NO. Then from an Fi perspective-did we cause stress/anxiety/hurt to those involved? YES.

    Here is some interesting NLP info she found about how people are programmed. It captures the idea but mixes across jungian functions. I am Fi, so I do move away from pain, but NeTe makes me seek change, just systematically, remembering the pain from the last change. It makes me good at finding potholes.:


    Towards and Away From


    If you have a Towards Program, you tend to move towards pleasure. You set goals easily and frequently create new goals for yourself. If you have an Away Program, you focus on moving away from pain and avoiding risk. You make sure everything is safe before moving forward.

    Towards Program

    • Advantages – forward-thinking, goal-oriented, positive energy and drive.
    • Disadvantages – may get entangled by too many new intitiatives at once; may be perceived as ‘gung-ho’; has a tendency to leave things unfinished.

    Away From Program

    • Advantages – very good at assessing risks and recognizing what to avoid.
    • Disadvantages – overly cautious with a tendency to focus on the downside; may appear negative and unwilling to try new experiences; makes choices based on avoidance rather than a desire for something new.

  4. #14
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    I can tell her the negative aspects of the past, how those negatives may play out in the future, and what we need to avoid and improve upon. This could be a work or personal scenario.

    Then she asked "What did we do right? What did we improve?" My mouth gaped. I dunno. She said this is the response she always gets when she asks ISTJs/ENFPs this question-the gaping mouth. "Errrrrr......" My mouth is still gaping. I dont remember what got better, what improved.

    Do you remember what the improvements were or does your mind instead focus instead on the negatives encountered and how to improve them in the future?
    Hmm... That is a good question. I do know that my view on the past is not what I would call negative, but at the same time it is very much focused on "doing it better next time". Let's see...

    If I have a project, like work or such, I take mental notes on what went wrong and maybe remember some things that went extremely well. If it is "ok" quality as a whole, I am ok with it but still kinda embarrassed about the mistakes I made. I do remember the things that were disaster but that I could almost miraculously turn into "ok" quality. But yeah, I mostly remember the mistakes. Then, as I have the project off my desk, I kinda see it like, it happened, there's nothing I can do anymore, so let it be and forget about it.

    In life I have something similar going on. If I say something cruel, I make a big deal about it (in my mind), I don't let myself get off the hook, you could even say I punish myself. The things I have done well, they are more rare, since there is nothing special in being a good friend. I only remember the situations I could clearly help someone and not the situations that are more normal, even if in those situations I am being a good friend and most likely needed there.

    So, I think my standard is getting higher all the time. The things that I've done that now seem like horrible cruelty might have seemed to the old me like "ok". I am pretty sure I can never be good enough to not beat myself up from time to time.

  5. #15
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    If I have a project, like work or such, I take mental notes on what went wrong and maybe remember some things that went extremely well. If it is "ok" quality as a whole, I am ok with it but still kinda embarrassed about the mistakes I made. I do remember the things that were disaster but that I could almost miraculously turn into "ok" quality. But yeah, I mostly remember the mistakes. Then, as I have the project off my desk, I kinda see it like, it happened, there's nothing I can do anymore, so let it be and forget about it.

    In life I have something similar going on. If I say something cruel, I make a big deal about it (in my mind), I don't let myself get off the hook, you could even say I punish myself. The things I have done well, they are more rare, since there is nothing special in being a good friend. I only remember the situations I could clearly help someone and not the situations that are more normal, even if in those situations I am being a good friend and most likely needed there.

    So, I think my standard is getting higher all the time. The things that I've done that now seem like horrible cruelty might have seemed to the old me like "ok". I am pretty sure I can never be good enough to not beat myself up from time to time.
    This-the bolded sections-may capture it. For me-likely due to the Te-there is "nothing special in doing a good job". It is just expected so I dont even pay attention to it or mentally note it. And yes-my standards are always increasing-but highlighted more towards competency at a task than friendships.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Si perceives what was and Fi judges everything, but an ISTJ will probably use Te over Fi to judge. NFPs tend to perceive with Ne, which means looking for new ways to improve and trusting their theories for the future over the reality of what has been. Ne wants novelty and Si wants to stick with the tried-and-true.
    I think this may be a pivotal diff. My ISTJs can be negative Si and not want any change, remembering the Fi pain. The ENFPs I see can be negative about the past Si but actually wanting change due to Ne perhaps? We just very vocally point out potential issues and flaws in the past plan to prevent a reoccurance.

    INFPs are neat. I am going to start an INFP thread becuase I find you guys interesting.

  6. #16
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    I find this to be the case more in areas where I don't have or find emotional distance between the subject and me difficult. In relationship problems of all shapes and forms -- I'll almost always hone in what I did wrong and could do better next time. I'm very focused on finding out what the lessons are and dwelling on mistakes is painful. I think this is also linked to being an Enneagram 7. If I have gotten lost in the Bermuda triangle/black hole of negative thought cycles, it would be here.

    On the work front, I am a classic ENFP in spending large amounts of time highlighting contributions and ensuring people are recognized. I don't have to try to find things done well - it's just Fi programming that says it's important everyone is recognized that translates to Fe congratulating.

    Possibilities, of course, rule supreme but they are almost always presented as opportunities for positive changes/innovation. That's just how my brain works...I need to persuade myself before I can persuade anyone else and I thrive on optimism.

    On the rare occasion, when in Fi-Te mode, I do sometimes forget the Fe velvet glove for the Te iron fist. This is always in support of big picture changes that I think would be best for the organization as a whole. Getting better at stopping and thinking about presentation first.

  7. #17
    Reptilian Snuggletron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    Se-five
    Ne Five!


  8. #18
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Si perceives what was and Fi judges everything, but an ISTJ will probably use Te over Fi to judge. NFPs tend to perceive with Ne, which means looking for new ways to improve and trusting their theories for the future over the reality of what has been. Ne wants novelty and Si wants to stick with the tried-and-true.

    I don't feel I actually look at the past with a critical eye. I can romanticize the past a lot, but I see it as inspiration for something new & fresh, not something to be duplicated. It's not that I view everything as negative as I realize everything can be improved. Many NFPs have this mindset, which is why we often need deadlines to ever complete something; nothing is ever truly finished, it can always be better.

    In my own life, I can see many positive improvements, and I can also see how things were better in past times. In many threads, a "Fi Si loop" that INFPs can get stuck in has been discussed, and it amounts to allowing negative experiences in the past taint your whole perspective so that you become fearful and withdrawn. In a healthy way, an INFP can use Si to ground them in reality so that their imagination doesn't totally carry them away.
    I generally concur with the above, but can't relate to the Fi-Si loop thing.

    I tend to easily finds lots of ways to improve on something, my problem is other peoples lacking of willingness or interest. "I care too much"

  9. #19
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In many threads, a "Fi Si loop" that INFPs can get stuck in has been discussed, and it amounts to allowing negative experiences in the past taint your whole perspective so that you become fearful and withdrawn. In a healthy way, an INFP can use Si to ground them in reality so that their imagination doesn't totally carry them away.
    Good post, but I thought that Si worked negatively within the INFP tertiary temptation (and Te also) and that Ne was the saving grace:

    INFPs??

    With this analysis in mind, it is easy to see how the tertiary temptation affects INFPs also (this might happen when the Te pressures the INFP to stop dreaming and get some results).
    • Fi + Si: "I must proceed cautiously into the unknown, or I will just mess up and feel like crap!"
    • Fi + Ne: "I will just improvise until I find a way to connect to this person. If we don't have anything to offer one another, I'll just move on and play with someone else."
    • Fi + Si (+ inferior Te): "If I fail, that'll only prove that I'm not practical, I don't know what I'm talking about, and I can't deliver on what I promise."
    • Fi + Ne: "If I fail, I'll learn something: it'll give me fuel to be creative and think of something new, that probably only I could think of. There's nothing like a difficulty with real stakes involved to spur my creativity!"
    Tertiary Temptation

    Quote Originally Posted by Adoamros View Post
    Ne Five!
    Lol!
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  10. #20
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    Good post, but I thought that Si worked negatively within the INFP tertiary temptation (and Te also) and that Ne was the saving grace
    I personally don't think inferior functions are always negative. I think they can be positive, but you cannot lead with them. The "Fi-Si loop" and "ESTJ shadow" are the ways in which you see Si and Te coming out negatively in an INFP, and yeah, those are big traps (I think every type can fall victim to their shadow or a dominant-tertiary loop). Ideally, I think they can provide an anchor to reality.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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