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[ENFJ] ENFJs, why are you so fake?

Amargith

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*smiles*

It's interesting. Fe is built to make things work, much like Te. It works with what it has. And, it's pragmatic, unlike Fi or Ti.

Where Te will build on what it has in a logical way, geared towards getting things accomplished, done, organized and up and running, Fe will do the same, but with regards to people.

That means that Fe is prone to work with what it has. People, in this case. And people, are rarely perfect. In fact, it's part of being human, to be flawed. It would make sense that Fe, in order to get the job done, to keep the group together, would not require utmost truth, much like Te, as long as it works. That means that Fe-users work with what they have: flawed people. And, to get those people to attain the goal that is beneficial to all of them, it would require a handling of those people which would give in the best results, the result that is beneficial to each individual in that group as well.

In contrast, Fi seeks perhaps the ultimate truth in values, and morals and how a person should be. But in the process, gets so bogged down in 'doing things right', that often it's not obtainable in this flawed world. It's a nice ideal but...that's it. Same goes for Ti. You can iron out all the logical flaws but might just lack the means and methods to actually put them into practice. Te might find a 'dirty' way around that problem and get things working....what's more important? The theoretical truth? Or the fact that we're getting somehwere?

Fe does what it does best. It gets people motivated to do the right thing, to make the best of who they are...despite the flaws, and it works around those flaws. If one of those flaws is that that particular person would have their heart torn out if you told them the absolute blunt truth, then that would be contra-productive towards the contribution that person is otherwise very much capable towards attaining the goal..towards being the best they can be. Yes..it is a problem, one that needs fixing and solving, but it's a problem for tomorrow. Today, there's another goal at stake, and that goal requires this person to be respected, warts and all, in order to get there, and so he should be, as he deserves to be, considering the merit he has in this goal, and maybe in many others. This merit earns him the respect of the group, and outweighs any flaws (such as not being able to bear the truth) when looking at the larger picture. And with that respect, comes the specific treatment that person requires.

I'd say Fe-users are masters at seeing that.

I'd personally instantly lose sight of the common goal and start this person on their journey to self-growth..which, if they're not ready for that, could take forever, meanwhile having everything that depended on this person break down. Not practical at all.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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^^ Wow. Great post
Also Fe is the function most prone to "fakeness" which really just refers to untrue to yourself in order to please others. But I don't think Fe users are being fake at all, it's just that it's being true to themselves to alter their values in accordance with the society they are a part of.
People exist on more levels than just the individual level. There exists of hierarchy of social structures from individual to society that are relevant in defining the individual. Having more acute awareness at various of these levels is not an issue of fakeness, but of awareness. There is an ideal in Western culture that says the individual is supreme and that decisions and the entire focus should ultimately be on self. This is actually a distortion of reality because we do not exist as individuals only, but also as groups at various levels. An individual is healthy and exists well when there is balance between the needs of self and the group. Sometimes it is a positive, intelligent, honest, and healthy thing to submit something of oneself to a group. In the end it is an issue of balance.

Fe is not necessarily untrue to self or fake, but it is awareness at a different level and being true at that level.
 

Emmilou

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^^ Wow. Great post

People exist on more levels than just the individual level. There exists of hierarchy of social structures from individual to society that are relevant in defining the individual. Having more acute awareness at various of these levels is not an issue of fakeness, but of awareness. There is an ideal in Western culture that says the individual is supreme and that decisions and the entire focus should ultimately be on self. This is actually a distortion of reality because we do not exist as individuals only, but also as groups at various levels. An individual is healthy and exists well when there is balance between the needs of self and the group. Sometimes it is a positive, intelligent, honest, and healthy thing to submit something of oneself to a group. In the end it is an issue of balance.

Fe is not necessarily untrue to self or fake, but it is awareness at a different level and being true at that level.

Hm, well I was actually trying to get at something like that (except not as refined) but I didn't convey it very well. When I said

"fakeness" which really just refers to untrue to yourself in order to please others

I meant to say that's how I imagined the OP was thinking of fakeness.That's why I used quotation marks around fakeness. But I was trying to say it really wasn't fake at all, because Fe isn't about the individual.

Thank you though, your post was much deeper and clearer than my own. :)
 

JoSunshine

That's my name biotch!
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To Satine :worthy:

I think this describes my Fe and way of being nearly perfectly. I couldn't have said it better myself :hug:
 

Domino

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*smiles*

It's interesting. Fe is built to make things work, much like Te. It works with what it has.

Perhaps this indicates why my ENTJ best friend and I sometimes appear to have the same reaction to something on the surface, esp when it's about something unjust, underhanded or disrespectful. We have the "Get it done" switch, or in more hair-trigger times, the "guillotine" button. Off with their heads. We don't suffer fools very well.

Where Te will build on what it has in a logical way, geared towards getting things accomplished, done, organized and up and running, Fe will do the same, but with regards to people.

Precisely. She wants to fix the system and benefit the wronged party. I want to reconstruct their psyches and bring comfort to their environment. Same pimp-slap, different means. We both want the wrong righted, we both want the victim to be consoled, and we have been known to bounce offenders between us like those fools in "Night at the Roxbury" until they start freaking out. lol

That means that Fe is prone to work with what it has. People, in this case. And people, are rarely perfect. In fact, it's part of being human, to be flawed. It would make sense that Fe, in order to get the job done, to keep the group together, would not require utmost truth, much like Te, as long as it works. That means that Fe-users work with what they have: flawed people. And, to get those people to attain the goal that is beneficial to all of them, it would require a handling of those people which would give in the best results, the result that is beneficial to each individual in that group as well.

It's a strange balance. I see people as generally well-intentioned while believing them capable of just about anything. Almost as if I'm dealing with former convicts who have the best of motives... for THEM. It's a sliding scale, you see. Those who are most self-aware are held to very high standards while those who are clearly divorced from themselves or in a shadow they're trying to struggle free from, they're held to lower standards. It's as if some of them were con men in a former life and don't remember, and have no clue why they act the way they do.

This brings me to cynicism versus skepticism - cynics rule out everything through a specific and singular filter set to personal arrogant standards, disbelieving everything and treating everything with contempt because they're either too stupid or too afraid to observe every aspect of life, denying that hope springs eternal in order to deaden their humanity, while the skeptic takes the events and trials and still chooses to remain human while weighing everything to understand it's true nature. I see Fe as a skeptic who wishes to see someone awaken to their personal truth as pertains to the truth we already see in them. We aren't cynics about humanity while weighing them and judging at the same time. The good people and the constant stream of con men, outlaws, freaks, you name it.

That built in eternal hope for people can be maddening.
 

LilyLOL

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I know ENFJs have a want to please people, which in turn rewards them with appreciation, but is this a genuine system? I ask this because I think the other side involves plans or goals. With this in mind, couldn't they please people simply for the sake of their goal?

So I think there's a variable that decides this all: whether the ultimate outcome of the goal is intended to help others or themselves.

I feel I've dealt with both sides, but mostly the latter. I have a friend that will "help" you, but in the end it had nothing to do with friendship, but an underlying goal in which I have to "keep my end of the deal" and help out with. I think this also has to do with charisma and trying to uphold it in order to accomplish a goal.

Am I talking about Hitler yet? :D

I dont try to help others to gain appreciation, and I also dont do it with the expectation that they will keep their end of any imagined "deal". I cannot speak for others and their motivations, but I can say that these two things dont come into it at all for me.

I just.... do it. If I see that someone is insecure, I try to do or say things that will make them feel secure. If I see that someone is having a rivalry with another person, I will do and say things to both parties that are likely to build a bridge of understanding. I am very subtle, I do these things naturally, and if there are reasons, it is
- that I CAN
- and that I like things to be smooth and harmonious
- and that I like for people to feel good

I think that ENFJs can see and sense things that other people might not notice. If most people could not see a thorn in someone elses foot, but you COULD, would you pull it out? Would you poke it and make it hurt more? Would you pull it out and then expect some sort of a reward for having done so?

These are all ENFJ choices in my opinion. For me, I pull it out, I try to do so without being detected, and I dont want or need a reward.

Hope that helps. Cheers!
 

Domino

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Let's just be insensitive jackasses. There! All fixed!
 

Sparrow

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Let's just be insensitive jackasses. There! All fixed!

Hahaha :) yea F*ck off losers. Your hair is butt ugly....now go home and cry to mama.

Was that good? ;)

(the above statement is a joke...duh! dont wanna get in trouble from the mod police)
 

mrcockburn

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Hahaha :) yea F*ck off losers. Your hair is butt ugly....now go home and cry to mama.

Was that good? ;)

(the above statement is a joke...duh! dont wanna get in trouble from the mod police)

O-oh yeah? Yeah well, your BUTT HAIR IS UGLY. :girlfight:
 

Sparrow

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WAHHH!!!!!! --> ---> --> Runs home to mommy...
 

Amargith

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:offtopic:

*mulls*

I just thought about the way your Fe works. Question: when you do call out the 'flaws' in people, do you do this becoz at that point there is no common goal at stake and you care enough about them to try and mend this, before the next 'crisis' so to speak?

And do you truly consider them flaws, things to be rectified and improved as they can be a weakness towards the common goal for the group? Is that the point of what I perceive as 'judging' others? Coz that *almost* makes sense to me.

The thing is, if this is what is going on, I find it hard to swallow as I'm very aware of my flaws and working at them. I just experience it as rubbing salt into the wound. But I guess you do that coz you want to make them aware or remind them to fix it?

Also...what do you expect people to do with those comments? Coz...I mean, when you call someone on their weakness, I find that usually no instructions are given as to how to deal with it and rectify it. You'll encourage people to be the best they can but that only supresses the problem imo, and avoids it, instead of untangling the knot. I guess I can see it working on smaller issues. *ponders*

How is one to proceed after getting one of those comments? What do you expect others to do with that comment? Address it on their own at their own discretion? Ask around and ask for help from the community? Suck it up? Or do you actually walk them through the path of self-discovery (which I consider Fi..)

Sorry, dunno if this is the right thread, but these are thoughts that came after I wrote the post that compared Te and Fe.
 

Arclight

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I think it is possible that it is not the flaw that is being judged or being called out. But rather behavior relating to the flaw.

For example I can have a short temper, this can be seen as a flaw and rightly so. But It's not that I have a short temper that would bother you or cause strife to anyone else.. unless I act on it.

There is a massive difference between saying "you are being stupid" and "you are stupid"

Correct your behavior.. it's not the same as saying you are flawed
 

Virtual ghost

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To be honest I would not say that ENFJs are fake since I think that there is one catch here.


The advertising intustry fakes Fe all the time and they are doing it without a pause. Plus they are trying really hard to mimic that warm motherly feeling that people usually miss in their lives.

Also in bussines environment it became normal to fake some level of Fe so that you look more polite than you are.


So when a ENFJ actually uses its original Fe it has the taste of fakeness and fraud.
 

skylights

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I think it is possible that it is not the flaw that is being judged or being called out. But rather behavior relating to the flaw.

For example I can have a short temper, this can be seen as a flaw and rightly so. But It's not that I have a short temper that would bother you or cause strife to anyone else.. unless I act on it.

There is a massive difference between saying "you are being stupid" and "you are stupid"

Correct your behavior.. it's not the same as saying you are flawed

i can totally hear an NFJ i know saying this. like, this exact same thing. :laugh:

it's a fair point, and certainly one Fi dom/aux could use to work on.

though at the same time, i feel like because your behavior is an extension of yourself, to a certain extent saying "correct your behavior" is saying "you need to change your self (but that's your problem, not mine)".

To be honest I would not say that ENFJs are fake since I think that there is one catch here.

The advertising intustry fakes Fe all the time and they are doing it without a pause. Plus they are trying really hard to mimic that warm motherly feeling that people usually miss in their lives.

Also in bussines environment it became normal to fake some level of Fe so that you look more polite than you are.

So when a ENFJ actually uses its original Fe it has the taste of fakeness and fraud.

this is a good point.

i don't feel like it's usually why Fe feels fake to me (which is not often) - but it could certainly contribute to some people's feeling that way. i can't really speak for all Fi dom/aux but it's really no question to me when industry is trying to fake things. i don't feel warm nuturing feelings from advertisement, i just get the feeling that they want me to associate warm nuturing feelings with their product. which sometimes i do, but it rarely has anything to do with the advertising itself. more just with the associations i've developed on my own.

to me Fe feeling fake is similar to my problem with Arclight's reasoning above - i feel like sometimes it overlooks the importance of identity. i feel like sometimes Fe can overlook the needs of others' deepest selves and one's own deepest self sometimes too. it does a very good job of taking care of you but it doesn't always help you address the hard things that need to be addressed - like why you have that short temper to begin with, and how it can be dealt with, so you can not fight against it and tame it, but rather come to terms with it and change it at a very fundamental level. but of course, the sin of Fi is to obsess over the deepest self too much and forget to take care of people on a more warm fuzzy level, which is unquestionably important. we would wither without it.

and i am an ENFJ fan. so no hard feelings from me :heart:
 

Arclight

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i can totally hear an NFJ i know saying this. like, this exact same thing. :laugh:

it's a fair point, and certainly one Fi dom/aux could use to work on.

though at the same time, i feel like because your behavior is an extension of yourself, to a certain extent saying "correct your behavior" is saying "you need to change your self".

I just recently, made a post in a completely unrelated thread, but I think it might explain the same concept just in different words.. I at least make a connection anyway.

Your Core is your core.. but your behavior is somewhat fluid and dependent on your circumstances.

How much can outside influences shape our behavior? We are equipped with several points of stimuli receptors and an emotional and mental capacity to process stimulus based information.
Then there is the concept of homeostasis which is the state of all things being in perfect working condition internally.
Then You are who you are.

But each day, both positive and negative circumstances influence our state of balance. And thus take us away from the core of who we are, or move us closer toward it.

I am not a liar.. but if every day, telling a lie insures my survival , then I am going to lie. (like in the instance of pledging allegiance to some political maniac who will kill me if I don't sort of thing)

Here is the post I am talking about
You can't label someone with this stuff entirely because,

We're always changing .. we adapt to our circumstances and environment.
Our morality,interests, temperament, status, confidence, mental state, ideals, manners, mannerisms, critiques, desires and fears (just to name a few)
are dependent on what is going on around us now and the likely possibilities of what is to come.
Our preferences are based mostly on the past and require constant inventory to be up to date if our behavior is to be congruent with our values.

Of course there is always our personal genetic template that has an influence and it has to be considered.
But nature VS Nurture studies indicate that the gap is never more than 60-40 in either direction with most settling on a 50-50 split..

So Half of who and what we are is transient ,unpredictable and based on our present and possible circumstances.
 
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