User Tag List

First 3111213141523 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 236

  1. #121
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    It's sincerely fake.

    To their own boundaries? But what are they going to do with your sincere desire that they feel good? Tell you to fuck off and care for some other puppy? Wouldn't a decent idea of "boundaries" include the idea that your desire has zip to do with me? Perhaps we want to be talking about reciprocity borders rather than boundaries.

    See, now that's weird. What if your opinion of me will tell me more than your wish for me to feel good? Indeed, what if your wish for me to feel good in fact blinds me to a very real source of understanding and development, namely the second perspective on who I am.
    I think you may have placed some assumptions into the reading of my statement, but I haven't sorted it out. The purpose of withholding judgment is to create a more complete picture before forming a conclusion. What I was describing is certainly not an empty plastic Stepford Wife smile towards the world. It's a method of working to meet a person on their own terms rather than mine. Judgment and punishment are often knee-jerk reactions in social interaction for self-protection. Sometimes withholding conclusion in favor of observing and learning from another person yields more accurate results. Think of any person you observe who has a strong reaction to someone. I think of my aunt's strong negative reaction to my mother at times. I can see from the outside certain factors from her life that distorts her perspective. I view myself the same way and so am slow to conclude.

    There is also value in calming everyone down. When people are placed on the defensive communication crumbles. Perhaps some see it as more honest, but I see the walls come up, the armored image come on in an attempt to self-protect. The true person disintegrates. The true person is often in that quiet moment when they can take a deep breath and let go of that outer shell. Most people have been knocked around hard by life and are laden with defenses. Sometimes just not reacting in anger as everyone else ever has is the best way to connect on that deeper level. It is like connecting to any animal you encounter in the forest. You sit quietly and provide snacks. You are gentle, consistent, quiet, and loving. That is when the animal will approach and let down their instincts of self-preservation and defensiveness.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #122
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Synopsis:

    While it is Fi that amounts to the usual meaning of "true to myself" it seems there is another thing one should be able to say too: something like,

    my feeling crucially and directly depends on the state and nature of the people, even the whole world, around me, and I'm really not being true to myself if I don't become an active part of that.

    Is it so? This would be a crucial way in which Fe is not fake.

    Discussion:

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Could we extend to this to say that all Extraverted Judgement seems "fake" from a standpoint of Introverted Judgement? Ti and Fi are rules that derive from being "in tune" with a process, whereas Te and Fe rulesets seem far more arbitrary to me, and serve agendas rather than to foster true understanding.
    That sounds right. And I've for a while been trying to come up with a description of what Te does, to find out where these, as you say, agendas get their legitimacy. It seems at first glance absurd to say Te is about truth if what it tends to do is... curtail truth?

    Maybe this: where Ti is endless and always about itself, long chains of reasoning and lots of categorisation, Te is short hops between given... um, let's say "statements". Te riffs off the outer world, so includes in its protocols the idea that it's legitimate to start somewhere and end somewhere in a chain of reasoning. Which is to say, the beginnings and endings of reasoning chains are given. As I understand it, Ti values are more likely to require that foundations be questioned exhaustively.

    That's a hypothesis. I don't know the processes well enough to be sure. The magical mystery part then is how does a Te user acquire any depth of insight, how do they gain actual Truth? Either through being a Te dom and doing huge numbers of these short hops, and/or by drawing on a Pi, I guess.

    So... the agenda... something like "In as much as the world is real and there to be seen, what happens next is XYZ."

    I guess.

    Anyway, that's why Toast's description rang up as "not fake". Where it is Fi that amounts to the usual meaning of "true to myself" it seems there another thing one should be able to say too: something like, "my feeling crucially and directly depends on the state and nature of the people, even the whole world, around me, and I'm really not being true to myself if I don't become an active part of that."

    (Oh, I think I just hurt myself: too make faux Ti and I just gave ENFJs a license to pwn. )

    What would the inverse be? Is Introverted Judgement "naive" or "selfish" from an Extraverted Judgement standpoint?
    "Selfish" and/or "(merely) academic".


    You know what, tho. A Je user, when they're being positive and not under pressure and have been able to use their Je in ways they wanted, they tend to look upon Ji as a mystical, illuminated magical thing that provides profound insights.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #123
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I think you may have placed some assumptions into the reading of my statement, but I haven't sorted it out. The purpose of withholding judgment is to create a more complete picture before forming a conclusion. What I was describing is certainly not an empty plastic Stepford Wife smile towards the world. It's a method of working to meet a person on their own terms rather than mine. Judgment and punishment are often knee-jerk reactions in social interaction for self-protection. Sometimes withholding conclusion in favor of observing and learning from another person yields more accurate results. Think of any person you observe who has a strong reaction to someone. I think of my aunt's strong negative reaction to my mother at times. I can see from the outside certain factors from her life that distorts her perspective. I view myself the same way and so am slow to conclude.

    There is also value in calming everyone down. When people are placed on the defensive communication crumbles. Perhaps some see it as more honest, but I see the walls come up, the armored image come on in an attempt to self-protect. The true person disintegrates. The true person is often in that quiet moment when they can take a deep breath and let go of that outer shell. Most people have been knocked around hard by life and are laden with defenses. Sometimes just not reacting in anger as everyone else ever has is the best way to connect on that deeper level. It is like connecting to any animal you encounter in the forest. You sit quietly and provide snacks. You are gentle, consistent, quiet, and loving. That is when the animal will approach and let down their instincts of self-preservation and defensiveness.
    [insert muddled attempt to be nice too because you have such a nice tone and apparently didn't take offense when I responded pretty much purely from my own perspective]

    [insert suspicious look... waitaminute, somehow I'm only talking for myself now, not universal truth... ]


    I have wondered some on the positive need for Fe and Ti to go together. Ti, and Ti values, in some sense seem to need a protector. It seems fragile, Ti. It can get sidetracked. It is endlessly incomplete. It collects fractions of reasonings, step by step. It needs someone to protect it, to help it get on with the job.

    Or am I mistaking Ti need with actual already present Fe operation? Probably.

    There is some puzzle thing in there, however. There is some kind of symmetry, too, if Fe provides the order and Ti provides the truth, for one can also say Te provides the order and Fi provides the "truth".


    But enough of this N-ramble. I reply this way because the idyllic image you present is claustrophobic. Not to everyone, mind. And not necessarily even to me, IRL circumstance by circumstance. But in immediate impact of imagery, yeah, claustrophobic. And horribly unfair. I don't get to use my brand of thinking in such an idyll.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #124
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    [insert muddled attempt to be nice too because you have such a nice tone and apparently didn't take offense when I responded pretty much purely from my own perspective]

    [insert suspicious look... waitaminute, somehow I'm only talking for myself now, not universal truth... ]


    I have wondered some on the positive need for Fe and Ti to go together. Ti, and Ti values, in some sense seem to need a protector. It seems fragile, Ti. It can get sidetracked. It is endlessly incomplete. It collects fractions of reasonings, step by step. It needs someone to protect it, to help it get on with the job.

    Or am I mistaking Ti need with actual already present Fe operation? Probably.

    There is some puzzle thing in there, however. There is some kind of symmetry, too, if Fe provides the order and Ti provides the truth, for one can also say Te provides the order and Fi provides the "truth".


    But enough of this N-ramble. I reply this way because the idyllic image you present is claustrophobic. Not to everyone, mind. And not necessarily even to me, IRL circumstance by circumstance. But in immediate impact of imagery, yeah, claustrophobic. And horribly unfair. I don't get to use my brand of thinking in such an idyll.
    What I describe is just one dynamic, and I'm not suggesting it should trump other dynamics. I'm not sure why a different approach couldn't interact. The dynamic I describe only holds to a model personal behavior and reaction. What is encountered can represent a diversity of styles. The question is whether the style I describe is allowed for from the vantage point of different approaches, or if it is readily dismissed as not legitimate. The style I describe is only incompatible with another style if that other style dismisses it as far as I am able to deduce. Would your style of thinking and reacting allow for mine?

    Edit: Considering one approach to be globally legitimate and therefore dismissing diverse styles is the root of "horribly unfair". When someone dismisses the role of Fe in the world as being fundamentally "fake" you get the same level of "unfair" as what you express in response to your perception of what I wrote. My point was to demonstrate a legitimate, honest dynamic that involved Fe, not to present a universal way of being for all people that dismissed certain styles of interaction and thinking as not legitimate.
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 01-25-2010 at 11:52 AM.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #125
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    2w3
    Posts
    249

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Could we extend to this to say that all Extraverted Judgement seems "fake" from a standpoint of Introverted Judgement? Ti and Fi are rules that derive from being "in tune" with a process, whereas Te and Fe rulesets seem far more arbitrary to me, and serve agendas rather than to foster true understanding.

    What would the inverse be? Is Introverted Judgement "naive" or "selfish" from an Extraverted Judgement standpoint?
    When I think about it, and every time I remember being aware of really experiencing Fi, it seemed selfish & made me feel bitter & detached. Of course, I know that Fi is not in itself selfish & detached... but I use it when I already feel that way. So, I would definitely agree that this is an issue of dominant Fe or Te vs. dominant Fi or Ti not being able to truly relate to or define the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    Don't pretend like you don't know what your social image is. ENFJs are VERY image conscious. That's why the female ones are obsessed with the latest makeup, the latest fashion, purses, boots, hair color and whatnot. I don't know why but all the ENFJ chicks I've met were hot. Maybe it's because of their awareness of what kind of an image they leave. Or they're good at making themselves look good.
    This is all external. I can't imagine an ENFJ with a consistently "clear head" on exactly "who they are" when we are talking self-evaluation/examination of thoughts, feelings & judgments inside (Fi), but that does not mean there is no identity.

    And while I think the above can be true, it is not such a generality. As long as the ENFJ's self image is attached to even a small group identity, they will be very aware of it but uncertain of whether or not its really them... Hence, they change up their appearance to some extent, but maybe within a formula they feel is safely "them" but appropriate. Hence, the "Barbie" type would keep up with the "latest" makeup, fashion, etc. precisely because she is shifting her appearance & seeking to change it to organize/understand/control her outer world. An ENFJ wants an identity, makes an identity, has an identity... In that order, but the process is constantly cycling I think. This can be slow, like over the course of years, but I'm pretty sure it is consistent, at least IME.

    Example: I like makeup, but only certain kinds & can keep using the same kind for years. I never wear heels & have never owned a purse but I'm what most would call fashion "conscious." I like shopping AND loathe shopping depending on the situation. I wear what could easily be defined as a specific style of clothes but I never ever wear an outfit without red in it (I wear red almost exclusively). I have bright red dyed hair but I am not goth, punk, emo... artsy... anything. I'm a premed student with a van. I like the way I look/dress. A lot of other people like it. I made it that way...

    But, what's my "image"? Well, see that's where I can't define anything... when I have to evaluate myself from the inside out. What am I "going for"? No idea. But if someone asked why I wore red so much or why I never carry a purse I'd say: "It's my favorite color" or "they seem stupid & unnecessarily burdening." So the "image" idea doesn't really mean anything. Its more a way of organizing identity on the outside because it seems almost impossible on the inside. Still doesn't touch on "fakeness" or the superiority of Fe or Fi.
    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  6. #126
    Senior Member hokie912's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    271

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LotsOfHeart View Post
    I think both ENFJs and INFJs (yes, my own type) can have this problem. It's not one of our prouder suits, but I've seen people of both types put on masks, compliment and hang out with people they can't stand. It's not to say these are the only types that do that, and NFJs tend to do it with the intention of not hurting other people.

    There are some people I can't stand but can wear a mask of approval around them. If they knew how I really felt about them they'd either be deeply hurt inside, angry or both. It's usually because I don't want to hurt their feelings or be in conflict with them when it's not necessary. INFJs are great at hiding things if we feel an incentive to do so. We'll complain to our trusted allies but it'll stay there. We also use people as chess pieces sometimes to get what we want.

    ENFJs do the same thing, for basically the same reasons, but since extroverted feeling is their dominant, and they are extroverts, they are not quite as selective of who they share their true feelings with.


    Definitely guilty of this at times, and I think you've done a great job of explaining the motivations behind that behavior. It sounds horribly fake, but I have to take a moment to explain why it isn't necessarily. In my case, I honestly can find something to like and value in nearly every person I meet. And because of that, I'm interested in fostering some sort of relationship with them, even if it's just as a casual acquaintance, and my Fe is concerned for their well-being. I'm not saying that it's never purely instrumental to put on a happy face to someone you don't particularly care for or that that doesn't happen (because it does, and as LotsofHeart said, INFJs are pretty good at it). But in most cases where this manifests for me, I like and value the person and what he or she brings to my life and there are a few things about said person that irritate me enough that I need to vent (and wouldn't say to them for a variety of reasons including not wanting to hurt the person, wishing to preserve the relationship, valuing harmony, and, well, liking being liked).

    And I choose my one or two confidants well and have yet to have the experience of someone I've grown to trust that much betray that confidence. I won't put effort into protecting the feelings of the rare person I come across that I truly don't care for at all. But I have noticed that I have to be careful of myself when I've found a confidant, because I somehow end up sharing every evil thought that crosses my mind about someone I genuinely like in most other respects. I know it's catty, and it's something that I've become aware of and been trying to work on (for myself, not because it's caused particular problems). I think you definitely might be on to something that ENFJs get a worse rap than INFJs because they're often less sparing in who they choose to confide in.

  7. #127
    Banned
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    202

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    The male ENFJs are less fake than the female ones imo.

    What makes me like ENFPs a lot more than ENFJs is that ENFJs are far too much concerned with their social image and their popularity. If you have a bad reputation among the social circle an ENFJ will avoid you and feel uncomfortable if someone sees you with them. They'll be nice to you, but it will be fake because you're giving them a bad rap.

    An ENFP doesn't care if all the world thinks you're bad, if they find you interesting they'll probe and poke you until they get to your core.

    To get more to the core of it: ENFJs depend on the opinions of others way too much. They reflect all the values that a social circle has. If the social circle has bad values the ENFJ has bad values, while the ENFP is always genuine, even in Iraq or Afghanistan(if they don't get the hell out of there before they get killed).

    ENFPs also care a great deal what other people think about them but they are a lot less conformist compared to ENFJs.

    There, I hope I didn't make anyone cry.
    The best reply I read here so far.


    I've dated two ENFJs. It's one of the most annoying things about them IMO. "Why do you care what others think so much?"...i'm constantly thinking that but I rarely say it to them because I know thats just how they naturally are and you can't change it.

    it also leads to them being insecure when theres no reason to be.

  8. #128
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    2w3 so/sx
    Posts
    1,273

    Default

    No reason to you. Fe is both affected by others and affects others. It's something we can try to ignore--Fe's concern with not being popular, but it's not possible to shut that down altogether; it'd be like telling you to turn off your Ne. You can't do it. Neither can we.
    Mature ENFJs are able to hide the fact a little better that they care so much about their place in the community, but even they should be comforted, because it is still a labor for us. I think I'd even go so far as to saying it's vital to our emotional health...at least until around 40 or 50.
    Love is the point.

  9. #129
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    eNFJ
    Enneagram
    4w3 sx/so
    Socionics
    eNFJ Ni
    Posts
    11,443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPER View Post
    The best reply I read here so far.


    I've dated two ENFJs. It's one of the most annoying things about them IMO. "Why do you care what others think so much?"...i'm constantly thinking that but I rarely say it to them because I know thats just how they naturally are and you can't change it.

    it also leads to them being insecure when theres no reason to be.
    If you can't hang, just say so, cowboy.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  10. #130
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default

    I find the insinuations of this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Ridiculous.
    ***

    Quote Originally Posted by SUPER View Post
    It's one of the most annoying things about them IMO. "Why do you care what others think so much?"...i'm constantly thinking that but I rarely say it to them because I know thats just how they naturally are and you can't change it.
    One of my best friends is an ENFJ (the one who introduced me to MBTI). She has the above issue you mentioned, and I've raised this issue with her. It's because, in a way, she "cares too much".

    This poster answered the motivations of such actions well, the bolded:
    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    To say there is some conscious or even subconscious "play" at work behind everything we do for other people is just focusing so narrowly. If I am aware of how manipulative I can be, and consistently scrutinizing myself for it, then taking steps to help without pushing... How can one say I am doing ALL of that for me? I'm pretty sure anyone who just follows their most base reactions can be seen as having a selfish agenda, but if there is one thing I am certain about with every ENFJ I've known its that we are highly critical of our motives with others. That is likely the reason we are so eaten up by criticism. Case in point.
    There is nothing fake in the way my ENFJ friend engages with others, she makes the person she's conversing with feel like they truly matter, that they're not boring her. She asks genuine questions, where, listening and absorbing the responses are indicated by her follow-up questions (and responses), as it goes deeper and deeper.

    Fakeness would imply always wallowing at the surface level. I can't imagine how that could logically be possible, given how in-depth she tries to know people, their issues, and feelings. And, she will ask about those "insignificant" details after a significant period of time, or, bring up a point about the person's current issue, that's related to that "insignificant" thing they pointed out ages ago [and it's insightful and on point], where, the person is left feeling like, "wow, she truly heard and understood me when I spoke that last time!"

    She absorbs people, that's the best way I can describe her, and her interactions with others. It's like a part of their essence [that they shared with her] is absorbed into herself.

    Unlike my other best friend, ESFJ, she may seem flighty or colder ("fake") because she may not always be tangibly present (in concrete form), but she's there for the more heart-to-heart, soul-searching stuff [more rare, but it's quality over quantity].

    My ESFJ best friend, if I'm feeling down will make me chicken soup, to warm me up, while my ENFJ best friend might not always think to do that, but, will be the chicken soup for my soul, ready to delve deeply into whatever it is that's bothering me (which, my ESFJ best friend can't always do).


    As such, because of the way she engages with others, it's understandable that she gets disappointed and shaken when she sees others not "caring enough"...because she's subconsciously using herself as her measuring scale, and very few measure up to the depths that Fe, being backed up with Ni, can go to. And, to compensate, she may try to exert herself on others, in a way that gets translated as "caring too much"....but, the intent comes from an expected give-and-take. No fakeness.

    Her giving to the other to get to know them to the depth she does, and then, taking from them, their flippant attitudes, and getting hurt because it's not met with the same depth and scrutiny as she gave to them...leads to her disappointment [which she internalizes, imo, far too much, before it boils to the surface]. Which translates into being hurt because she "cared too much [and they didn't]." With time and introspection, she has learned to moderate her expectations of others, and to be more proactive with stating her own wants and needs upfront, but, she's truly one of the few people I know who's all about personal growth, honesty in introspection and all that. Especially more than me, who is more detached with such things.

    It's quite inspiring, especially because as an ENTP, I have to make a conscious effort to keep my Fe engaged, and thus, not be bored when someone is revealing something about themselves, if I don't find immediate intrigue, and value in it. For her, it's like, the fact that the person is sharing in the first place, a piece of themselves, their identity, their reality, is intriguing enough for her to want to know more. There is nothing fake about that.

    Maybe, OP, you need to meet healthy and older ENFJs?

Similar Threads

  1. [INTP] Bloody INTPS! Why are you so damn oblivious?
    By goodgrief in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 05-31-2010, 05:38 AM
  2. [ENFP] ENFPs, why are you so addicting?
    By Risen in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 113
    Last Post: 03-26-2010, 10:52 PM
  3. [INFP] Why are you so quiet?
    By Tropics in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 11-30-2008, 01:50 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO