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  1. #111
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast View Post
    Yeah. If you basically live & think and feel from the inside out, its not as easy as that. I would say I'm pretty out of touch with what's inside... I mean what exactly am I going to grab onto? My emotions can be so strong that it is hard to navigate through them without other people. I definitely know myself better than anyone else, but my feelings override everything quite often & they are irrational, intangible & completely clash with my judgments a lot of the time, unless those judgments involve others, then its easier to figure out what I want to do, but it seldom involves what I would consider "me." Its just comfortable & less confusing, so I do it.
    You know what? That makes sense and sounds worthy of respect. The idea of "fake" would be "not true to myself", which is really easy to interpret in Fi terms, but what you have in the paragraph above sounds the same, a "true to myself" kind of statement.

    So I take back the "sincerely fake" claim.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #112
    Senior Member Ace_'s Avatar
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    The male ENFJs are less fake than the female ones imo.

    What makes me like ENFPs a lot more than ENFJs is that ENFJs are far too much concerned with their social image and their popularity. If you have a bad reputation among the social circle an ENFJ will avoid you and feel uncomfortable if someone sees you with them. They'll be nice to you, but it will be fake because you're giving them a bad rap.

    An ENFP doesn't care if all the world thinks you're bad, if they find you interesting they'll probe and poke you until they get to your core.

    To get more to the core of it: ENFJs depend on the opinions of others way too much. They reflect all the values that a social circle has. If the social circle has bad values the ENFJ has bad values, while the ENFP is always genuine, even in Iraq or Afghanistan(if they don't get the hell out of there before they get killed).

    ENFPs also care a great deal what other people think about them but they are a lot less conformist compared to ENFJs.

    There, I hope I didn't make anyone cry.

  3. #113
    Glycerine
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    I agree w/ you Ace for the most part except that I don't think we necessarily tie our values entirely to the social circle. Secondary Ni makes us question and flex our Fe. What you said about the bad values was described more in a ESFJ profile than ENFJ (not to bash ESFJs...oops ) Speaking for myself, I question what social protocol I should follow and if I deem it unnecessary or unethical, I don't even bother w/ it. Ni questions everything.

  4. #114
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    You know what? That makes sense and sounds worthy of respect. The idea of "fake" would be "not true to myself", which is really easy to interpret in Fi terms, but what you have in the paragraph above sounds the same, a "true to myself" kind of statement.

    So I take back the "sincerely fake" claim.
    Could we extend to this to say that all Extraverted Judgement seems "fake" from a standpoint of Introverted Judgement? Ti and Fi are rules that derive from being "in tune" with a process, whereas Te and Fe rulesets seem far more arbitrary to me, and serve agendas rather than to foster true understanding.

    What would the inverse be? Is Introverted Judgement "naive" or "selfish" from an Extraverted Judgement standpoint?
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  5. #115
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    The male ENFJs are less fake than the female ones imo.

    What makes me like ENFPs a lot more than ENFJs is that ENFJs are far too much concerned with their social image and their popularity. If you have a bad reputation among the social circle an ENFJ will avoid you and feel uncomfortable if someone sees you with them. They'll be nice to you, but it will be fake because you're giving them a bad rap.

    An ENFP doesn't care if all the world thinks you're bad, if they find you interesting they'll probe and poke you until they get to your core.

    To get more to the core of it: ENFJs depend on the opinions of others way too much. They reflect all the values that a social circle has. If the social circle has bad values the ENFJ has bad values, while the ENFP is always genuine, even in Iraq or Afghanistan(if they don't get the hell out of there before they get killed).

    ENFPs also care a great deal what other people think about them but they are a lot less conformist compared to ENFJs.

    There, I hope I didn't make anyone cry.
    Waaaaahhh!!!!

    Not really...I do wholesale disagree with you throwing all of one type into a bucket, but that is neither here nor there.

    I think I could sway your blanket opinion if you met my friends - they are a motley crew to say the least.

    I am very much an individualist and think that it takes all kinds and believe the world would be quite bland if everyone conformed. Some people don't like me and I am OK with that...can't please them all right? I am not even sure what my "social image" is.

    I am sure there are some ENFJs who are as you described, just not this ENFJ
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
    Extroverted (E) 52.5%........Introverted (I) 47.5%
    Intuitive (N) 65.63%..........Sensing (S) 34.38%
    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  6. #116
    Senior Member Ace_'s Avatar
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    Don't pretend like you don't know what your social image is. ENFJs are VERY image conscious. That's why the female ones are obsessed with the latest makeup, the latest fashion, purses, boots, hair color and whatnot. I don't know why but all the ENFJ chicks I've met were hot. Maybe it's because of their awareness of what kind of an image they leave. Or they're good at making themselves look good.

    JoSunshine, perhaps you're an INFJ.

    Now that I read it I have to agree that I was really bashing just dominant Fe in some sentences. What I wrote about reflecting bad values to stay loyal to the social circle applies more to ESFJs although ENFJs need to watch out for that too.

  7. #117
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    Don't pretend like you don't know what your social image is. ENFJs are VERY image conscious. That's why the female ones are obsessed with the latest makeup, the latest fashion, purses, boots, hair color and whatnot. I don't know why but all the ENFJ chicks I've met were hot. Maybe it's because of their awareness of what kind of an image they leave. Or they're good at making themselves look good.

    JoSunshine, perhaps you're an INFJ.

    Now that I read it I have to agree that I was really bashing just dominant Fe in some sentences. What I wrote about reflecting bad values to stay loyal to the social circle applies more to ESFJs.
    Let's see my social image.... reserved, quirky, intellectual, jabberjaws, intense, open-minded.... that's all I can think of?
    haha way to lump ENFJs all together. This is where I really question my ENFJness. I am nothing like what you described in the above quote. I am far from being "popular" and gave up caring about that stuff a LONG time ago. However, I could see how some ENFJ females would gravitate towards that behavior.

    EDIT: Image-consciousness probably relates more to enneagram. Since most ENFJs are 2w3 or 3w2 (I think), than most are going to be image-conscious. Maybe? I'm 3w4... a little out of the norm.

  8. #118
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    I agree w/ you Ace for the most part except that I don't think we necessarily tie our values entirely to the social circle. Secondary Ni makes us question and flex our Fe. What you said about the bad values was described more in a ESFJ profile than ENFJ (not to bash ESFJs...oops ) Speaking for myself, I question what social protocol I should follow and if I deem it unnecessary or unethical, I don't even bother w/ it. Ni questions everything.
    I think ENFJs try to conform others to our social protocol. We lead a little bit differently than ESFJs...ESFJ's are "move things along" leaders, while ENFJ is the magnanomous patriarchs. We are kings and queens. We alone rule, but we do it in a very "knights of the round table" sort of way.
    Love is the point.

  9. #119
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    What makes me like ENFPs a lot more than ENFJs is that ENFJs are far too much concerned with their social image and their popularity. If you have a bad reputation among the social circle an ENFJ will avoid you and feel uncomfortable if someone sees you with them. They'll be nice to you, but it will be fake because you're giving them a bad rap.
    How many ENFJs IRL are you basing this opinion off of? Yes, we care about what other people think of us because we are Fe and care about people in general and don't want to be rude to them. But this statement is bs compaired to anything I've ever seen IRL. Those I've seen IRL are some of the entire group most likely to "take under their wing" someone lagging behind. Then again everybody is different.

    To get more to the core of it: ENFJs depend on the opinions of others way too much. They reflect all the values that a social circle has. If the social circle has bad values the ENFJ has bad values, while the ENFP is always genuine, even in Iraq or Afghanistan(if they don't get the hell out of there before they get killed).
    *cough* This directly contradicts the core definition of J values.

    AND I'll have you know that ENFJs and ENFPs from those I know IRL are some of the MBTI types most concerned with being genuine in the first place.

    Do you have ANY evidence?

    Who irritated you so much with their insecurity and concern with social image? Sounds like a highschool goody-two-shoes girl to me, not an enneatype. We all know someone like this.



    EDIT: Image-consciousness probably relates more to enneagram. Since most ENFJs are 2w3 or 3w2 (I think), than most are going to be image-conscious. Maybe? I'm 3w4... a little out of the norm.
    Excellent thought. Yeah, I'm 3w2 but it's manifested through how hard I innerly judge myself in career progress. I try really hard to do a good job - but it's for me. Actually most the ENFJs on here are 1s (focused on values) or 9s it seems... I only know one or two with my enneagram type.

    Not sure, see poll here for definitive results. http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...gram-type.html
    Last edited by nynesneg; 01-21-2010 at 11:57 AM.
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    To push beyond their natural abilities and create a reality from their dreams.

  10. #120
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace_ View Post
    Don't pretend like you don't know what your social image is. ENFJs are VERY image conscious. That's why the female ones are obsessed with the latest makeup, the latest fashion, purses, boots, hair color and whatnot. I don't know why but all the ENFJ chicks I've met were hot. Maybe it's because of their awareness of what kind of an image they leave. Or they're good at making themselves look good.

    JoSunshine, perhaps you're an INFJ.
    Uhhhhh...well, I really don't know what my "image" is. I just kind of am who I am and I am not overly concerned with what people think of me and I do NOT conciously cultivate and image. I know when I was younger I went through pahses (the all-I-wear-is-black-phase, the purple hair phase, the fashionista phase), but that was a passage of youth. I am really not overly concerned with my appearance, as a matter-of-fact, I would catagorize it a basic. I'm a jeans and T-shirt kind of girl.

    I am also quite sure I am not an INFJ...granted my preferences are slight (see my % below), but I most often test ENFJ. I did know an ENFJ who was pretty off the deep end and totally image concious and I ran like hell from her because she was so extreme. All I am saying is, that it is not possible to make blanket assumptions about an entire type. It is possible for a well-balanced person to not be extreme in the ways you describe.

    I don't know you, but I do echo the question: Were you wronged in some way by an ENFJ and that is what has caused you to form such a strong negative opinion?
    "Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. " - Dr. Seuss
    I can't spell...get over it

    Slightly ENFJ, totally JoSunshine
    Extroverted (E) 52.5%........Introverted (I) 47.5%
    Intuitive (N) 65.63%..........Sensing (S) 34.38%
    Feeling (F) 55.56%............Thinking (T) 44.44%
    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

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