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  1. #31
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    It makes me want to hug them and slap some sense into them.
    Likewise - hug 'em and slug 'em simultaneously. Mostly, I feel very protective of these peeps but as adult relationships go...there's nothing you can do to stop someone who's decided to give themselves away, body and soul...

    So, for the time being, I've decided all I can do is warn of potential or current abuse in the broadest of ways and then run really fast in the opposite direction to, at least, protect myself from being caught up in the sway...



    Enneagram and Fe output -- aren't 2s (helpers) and 3s most concerned with image and outside recognition. Just thinking out aloud...

  2. #32
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You are right Ergophobe, although from what I've seen here most INFJs are 4s, 1s, or 5s. I still haven't decided what exactly I am, but I do sometimes see myself being able to draw firm lines for some but not for others. It definitely is Fe driven. I still think (at least for me) that there are definite limits to what I will tolerate. It's just that they are further back than what I would accept from others. That's something I've done a lot of thinking about and I believe it is changing over time. It's also a good reason why INFJs really need support people around them and need to be willing to seek out their perspectives for the dynamics they see going on. I have found a couple of friends invaluable in that sense. INFJs can be incredibly stubborn sometimes and so I think it's important for them to be aware of their own tendancies and be open to other's opinions.

  3. #33
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You are right Ergophobe, although from what I've seen here most INFJs are 4s, 1s, or 5s. I still haven't decided what exactly I am, but I do sometimes see myself being able to draw firm lines for some but not for others. It definitely is Fe driven. I still think (at least for me) that there are definite limits to what I will tolerate. It's just that they are further back than what I would accept from others. That's something I've done a lot of thinking about and I believe it is changing over time. It's also a good reason why INFJs really need support people around them and need to be willing to seek out their perspectives for the dynamics they see going on. I have found a couple of friends invaluable in that sense. INFJs can be incredibly stubborn sometimes and so I think it's important for them to be aware of their own tendancies and be open to other's opinions.
    Hey Layday - I'm sure we all have these weird prioritizing of relationships . I know I do. I just see my INFJ friends putting up with so much more (and that's saying a fair amount, in my case ) crap than I would ever think was okay. I've found some to be more aware and trying to break out of these patterns while others seem to think their lives depend on them and are quite protective of the same. I think it's the latter sort, that I worry about most. What would help them see that they could set better boundaries?

  4. #34
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Ergophone mentioned the Savior Complex, and I think it's most common with F types, in general.

    NFs can give the benefit of the doubt far too many times, get stuck on the possibility for the relationship(ignoring realities), get caught up in trying to understand, blame themselves illogically, and value the concepts of love and commitment more than themselves.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  5. #35
    Senior Member HollyGolightly's Avatar
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    I was emotionally abused throughout all my childhood and adolescent years. I never felt truly loved I could brood on it and think "why me" but I trust that it happened for a reason. Without it I wouldn't be the person I am today and I wouldn't have the knowledge I have about certain things.

    I still attract emotionally abusive people. I'm very shy, I come across as somebodywho can be easily manipulated. But thanks to my past experiences I'm great at spotting those kinda people and getting out of the situation. Not so great at not feeling the hurt though
    "Dad I can't feel my legs."

    "That's because you don't have any arms."

  6. #36
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow EnFpFer just said it all!

    Fortunately I don't think everyone is doomed to this pattern IF they are reflective and open to other people and try to get out of it. Ergophobe, I know what you are talking about and I wish I knew of a good way to get people to see what they are doing to themselves!

    I have seen a couple of women devote their whole lives to an impossible cause that is twisting and isolating them and their children in the process and often even ruining their health and other relationships. My sister is a prime example of this and yet after 20 years, I still do not know how to help her.

    The key preventative elements are:
    1) Don't get into a relationship before you have a solid sense of self and a support system in place of people whose lives you are contributing to and involved with and whom you can lean on as well.
    2) Balance is crucial to maintain a healthy relationship. When any one thing/person in your world becomes the most important, perspective gets off kilter and it creates a lot of unhealthy pressure as well on all involved.
    3) Self-care (whether health wise, reducing stress, getting into positive habits, making wise decisions about who to spend time with, not indulging addictive behaviours) sends strong cues to those nearby about how to value the person.
    4) People need non-romantic opportunities to practice establishing expectations and boundaries that create healthy relationships.
    5) People need a variety of perspectives in their life to help guide them. This is why balance between family, work, friends and relationship matters. It is also why they need different types of people and to voluntarily seek out others' advice or views so they are making informed choices. They need practice doing this before getting into a serious relationship where it is going to be even more difficult to ask for help when it is needed.

    Once the (INFJ) person is in a relationship though, I think caring enough to risk conflict with the person is probably important, understanding that it may make all the difference, or it may make them very upset. Also, sharing your own experiences indirectly is useful. Often though, both are difficult because there is not enough proximity to be able to do so. The relationship where they are suffering emotional abuse is too important to them, and it also has isolated them. One possible way to help address that is to look at what needs are being satisfied through that relationship and seeing if there are other ways of offering fulfillment for those needs so that they do not have to hang on so tightly to something that is so destructive.

    After 20 years with a very insecure and misathropic man, missing countless family gatherings and other events, my cousin did make some changes. She was 37, and decided that for the sake of her children she needed to start losing weight. The weight she lost, allowed her to realize how little time she ever took for herself and to deal with her family's resistance to her doing so for exercise. The confidence she found from seeing them come to value her more as a result of her valuing herself, as well as the the empowerment of seeing pounds coming off allowed her to start standing her ground in other areas as well. She still accepts more than I think I would, but has started realizing that she needs relationships, positivity, fun and emotional ties in her life. As a result, both her husband's and childrens' lives have been greatly enriched, even though she felt very selfish and guilty about it at first and encountered great resistance. The perspective she's gotten from having friends/family to bounce ideas off of has also allowed her to realize how out of whack things had gotten before without her ever realizing.

    I find it harder to draw lines for people close to me when there is not one over the top event that is a deal breaker. Sometimes relationships ebb and flow - people are closer or more distant. It is hard to determine what is natural, what gradual small changes have added up to big unaccepatable ones and where one's own behaviour factors in to all of it. In this sense, I think we can greatly benefit by experience of other people, both in observation and conversation. Also keeping a wide enough range of people in our lives so that we have some checks and balances when our perspective otherwise could become skewed helps tremendously.

  7. #37
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    Everyone has the capacity for cruelty, I've found. I don't know that some types are more likely to stay in abusive relationships than others. I think sometimes it depends on the person than type- as some people would tolerate emotional abuse, but not physical or vice versa.

    I was in an abusive relationship and one that was doomed to fail from its inception. Unfortunately, I am so idealistic that I see myself being able to tolerate just about anything and making it out "okay." This mindset, "Well, I made it through [insert event here] that [insert event 2 here] cannot be worse."

    It just doesn't really take into account that emotional wreckage builds up. This isn't healthy in the idea that it assumes I can tolerate anything when I am clearly very, very human with very human flaws. I am overly sensitive, moody, and have a long memory. Not the best combination with someone that is not emotionally in tune with anyone, not even himself.

    It has evolved to the point that I really wonder if I am willing to risk any kind of personal security for emotional intimacy with anyone. Rationally, I realize that I need other human beings to keep myself bound to the world. "No man is an island." I believe it.

    However, emotionally, I am fairly scarred up/worn out. I simply do not have the patience for people I feel are not or would not be as emotionally dedicated to me as I would be to them. Baggage doesn't necessarily bother me, as everyone carries some, but I refuse to be someone's bad weather friend.

    What makes me wonder is how people recover from this brand of "burn out"?

  8. #38
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    I've been through a lot of emotional abuse (and some physical), starting way back in childhood to the end of high school. I've always felt prone to being abused due to my sensitive, quiet, and passive nature. I just seem to have that personality people like to attack. I was often just treated like a punching bag; people loved to project their anger onto me. Because I grew up in an alcoholic home as a child and faced bullying at an early age, I kinda just adapted to being treated like shit and ignored. I never learned what "healthy" was until pretty recently. The impact of the abuse has caused more damage than you can imagine. I still have trouble saying I've been through abuse because I'm so used to changing reality around so everything is my fault (aka I was stupid and never stuck up for myself)

  9. #39
    Senior Member HollyGolightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ningamer View Post
    I've been through a lot of emotional abuse (and some physical), starting way back in childhood to the end of high school. I've always felt prone to being abused due to my sensitive, quiet, and passive nature. I just seem to have that personality people like to attack. I was often just treated like a punching bag; people loved to project their anger onto me. Because I grew up in an alcoholic home as a child and faced bullying at an early age, I kinda just adapted to being treated like shit and ignored. I never learned what "healthy" was until pretty recently. The impact of the abuse has caused more damage than you can imagine. I still have trouble saying I've been through abuse because I'm so used to changing reality around so everything is my fault (aka I was stupid and never stuck up for myself)
    Sweetheart I understand how you feel. I only realised what "healthy" was recently.
    And it's not your fault. I know you know that but believing it is a different matter. I mean, is it so wrong to have a big heart and be sensitive? No it's not. It's better than being a complete arsehole who gets off on the pain of others.
    The best answer you can give these people is for your compassion and good nature to remain intact. Their sole goal is to break you, if you don't give them what they want you have won So all this crap people spurt about not sticking up for yourself lets the bullies win...pfttt, ignore it. Sometimes it's impossible to stick up for yourself because it just simply won't help the situation. You can't control how people behave, if they wanna be unkind they will be regardless of whether you protest or not.

    Like my signature says, be yourself Continuing to do so really gives people their answer and shows a lot of courage and strength

    I'm getting all sentimental in my old age
    "Dad I can't feel my legs."

    "That's because you don't have any arms."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?
    I think this is true and not true depending on your experience. I've dealt with some emotional abuse and didn't really see the damage-potential at first due to plain naivete.
    I think when I was younger I just couldn't believe that someone would be that hateful because I wouldn't be that hateful.

    After having experienced that, however, I think I'm really good at picking the tendency up in others very quickly and getting far, far away from them. I've had friends tell me I make my judgements too soon sometimes, but that's a chance I'll take to avoid an emotionally abusive person.

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