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  1. #21
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?
    I think it can. Overall, I'm not even sure I could say NFs are more vulnerable, but my comments are an attempt to describe the specific way an NF might be vulnerable to it. Some other types might have too strong a sense of loyalty or social expectation, while others might be unaware of the emotional dynamic, etc.

    There are ways each type is strong in resisting various sorts of harm like emotional abuse just as there are ways different thinking styles makes someone more vulnerable.
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  2. #22
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    What about NFs being able to recognize subtle warning signs and emotional abuse before other people and types? Couldn't that make them less vulnerable in a way, or do other factors override that?
    I think I've not developed this enough, my N is not the strongest for an INFJ, I think. Or, the problem can arise when I find someone particularly attractive (particularly a guy I'm attracted to romantically, but "attractive" could apply in a different way for a woman, too.)

    Or...maybe most of all, when they open up to me. I start to think "this person really likes me, they trust me, they're giving me a special place in their life" and I think sometimes that just overrides my better judgment...
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  3. #23
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post

    An emotionally abusive person is a deeply tragic scenario. The process of creating an abuser involves violating a human being during their innocence and vulnerability until there is nothing left of that, they catch the disease of cruelty, and then become guilty of imposing it on another. They keep reliving that violation and powerlessness and overcompensate by controlling and oppressing. There may be some element of choice, but cause and effect account for much of what shapes a person.

    I think this is a true (and compassionate) way of looking at emotional abusers in some scenarios, but I'm not sure I'd agree that it's always the case. I tend to think that some people are just totally oblivious to the feelings of others, and you don't necessarily have to have been abused yourself to get that way. Personality may be innate up to a point but you can still choose to be selfish, not genuinely caring...etc.
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  4. #24
    Member monocycle's Avatar
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    I probably can't say anything because I've never really been in an emotionally abusive relationship. But I just don't think I could take it. I used to let people walk all over me in middle school. I look back on that and think to myself how stupid I was to let it happen.

    I did have a friend (She was either an ENFP or an ENTP, but I'm leaning toward ENFP) who was in an abusive relationship. She and the guy would fight constantly, break up, and then be back together a few days later. One night she called me and asked me to come over. When I got there, I heard stuff being thrown from inside the house and shouting. I didn't really know what to do. Finally, the guy came outside, didn't say anything to me, and left.

    I went inside and she was just sitting there crying on the couch. We talked, and then all of a sudden, he came storming back inside and started shouting at her again. I told him he needed to leave. I thought he was going to hit me. She brought him back to the bedroom and I heard him saying things like it wasn't my business to know what was going on between them and that I shouldn't be there.

    He came out of the back room and left again but not before giving me a big 'ol stink eye, and I returned one of my own. She came out right after him and said it'd be best if I went back home and thanked me for coming.

    They broke up after that. Everything went fine until one night, about four months after the whole fighting incident I witnessed, she came to see me at my work, and I noticed he was driving. She actually came to ask me for my blessing of their relationship. When I said I wouldn't give it, she blew up at me and brought up a previous guy I had dated and said how I would have taken him back if he wanted me (which was really hurtful because that relationship didn't exactly end on a good note for me).

    I calmly stood up, thanked her for outing me at work, and went to the back to vent alone. I have never WILLINGLY spoken to her since then. Needless to say, she and the guy are no longer together. He's now married and has kids.

    So, I think NFs, while they can be more prone to being emotionally abused, I think they could also be more prone to defend their abuser.
    Last edited by monocycle; 12-19-2009 at 05:54 PM.
    From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? -- Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1349

  5. #25
    That's my name biotch! JoSunshine's Avatar
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    One of my friends (an S) gets very upset with me for this very issue. Her observation, which I think is spot on and very similar to the observations made in this thread, is:

    I see the good in people and understand why they are the way they are so instead of focusing on HOW they treat me I focus on WHY they do it...which causes me to be sypathetic to why they are treating me poorly (how messed up is that?). I take things upon myself and think that if I just try a little harder and be more understanding, they will come around. I wait until I am sucked dry and no longer have anything left to give before I finally get out.

    I think it is an NF trait not only to understand why people are the way they are, but also to see people's potential and what they "could be". I am finally learning take people more as they are, rather than hoping for what they "could be".
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    Judging (J) 51.43%............Perceiving (P) 48.57%

  6. #26
    Lungs & Lips Locked Unkindloving's Avatar
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    When it comes to me, i've become bitter and picky about who i let close enough to have the potential to emotionally abuse me (due to previous emotional abuse).
    It's good and bad at the same time. I've become the abuser in situations because of it. Some people haven't understood that i retaliate when i feel threatened, especially after i've explained myself before.
    On the other hand, if i truly care for someone and they keep making abusive mistakes i will try to give them the benefit of the doubt for longer than i should/otherwise would. A part of me likes to believe people can have common sense and common courtesy. It causes a lot of problems, especially when i feel inclined to try to help them.

    At times, i find that people (perhaps NFs specifically) like to sacrifice themselves to try to accept or fix others. The problem there is not recognizing that we are still people and we may be sacrificing our own personal growth and stability for the state of other people who we cannot control the outcome of.

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    SilkRoad - I grew up in a very emotionally supportive environment. I also find it easy to draw boundaries in most cases. However, for people whom I've already categorized in my mind as good people, whom I have chosen to become close to, sometimes that changes. I tend to put up with some bad behaviour, not because I'm unaware of it or oblivious to its effects.

    INFJs are not quick to judge other people without being sure that they fully understand the situation and cannot positively impact it. For me I put up with some things with those I have let into my inner circle because I am

    1) trying to establish whether it's me being oversensitive or if it's the other person's actions
    2) haven't had enough time to see that so called small incidents all have common underlying themes
    3) I believe that the person's motivations aren't bad, although their actions are and they need to be made aware of the impact of their actions.
    4) I have not exhausted all of the possibilities I see which could change the situation.
    5) It appears to be a temporary reaction while the person is under extreme stress.
    6) I am too close to the situation and actually believe that I hold some personal responsibility/guilt for how things are. (This is one thing INFJs have to be concerned about as they are more likely to take blame on themselves than put it on other people initially. This means they can be manipulated to feel unjustifiably bad.)

    As time goes on, I think most INFJs become better at shortcutting that process and deciding who is worth investing emotional effort and time in and where to draw appropriate lines for their behaviour. Perhaps we also get better at accurately reading people's motivations sooner. I think we also become more sure of ourselves and our gut instincts. In retrospect, any issues (however slight initially) that I was concerned about at the beginning of a relationship have always born themselves out to be the big deal that I felt they were but couldn't give justification for immediately.

    I found it interesting that one of my NF friends could almost always put her finger immediately on why she did or didn't trust someone. I may have known the person much longer than her and found that to be true, but it took me longer to figure it out. I assuemd it was a personality difference between her and I or some inate ability to read people. She explained it had more to do with a wide range of negative early life experiences. When she encountered those same traits in new people then, she much more quickly could make guesses as to their mindset, motivations or character and she was nearly always correct. Interestingly, she had considerably more faith in adults and their ability to change than I do. She also was much more likely to "re-categorize" people in her mind than I was (maybe INFP/INFJ difference?).

  8. #28
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    I don't know if NFs are generally more susceptible to emotional abuse. I've seen people, across types, complain of being involved in emotionally abusive relationships. Generally, it seems to be correlated with:
    1. Poor self-esteem
    2. A savior complex
    Both of the above make likely victims. Of the NFs I know, all are very accommodating of the relationships in their lives (spouses/family/friends) but the INFJs IRL take the cake in this category...they seem to be (sample of 5 all of whom have taken the test and read the descriptions identifying themselves as INFJs) the most likely to be abused. Their Fe wants to make everything okay for people around them, all the time, at the expense of their own needs. They are also the least likely to ask for help or accept it (Enneagram 2s) but are among the first to offer help. This doesn't make them completely selfless towards everyone - they're still guided, it seems from the outside, by some prioritizing of relationships through a complicated internal process which leads to complete self-abnegation in relation to some (co-dependent relationships) and very 'normal' behavior towards others.

    Overall, they seem far more forgiving of behavior I would consider impolite or inconsiderate and I'm pretty forgiving, myself, I think. They also have less of a need for independence than the ENFs I know so perhaps that has something to do with it as well. I the INFJs but their Fe in overdrive can sometimes sweep everything and everyone in its sway and I'd just liked to be asked first, please

  9. #29
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I think this is a true (and compassionate) way of looking at emotional abusers in some scenarios, but I'm not sure I'd agree that it's always the case. I tend to think that some people are just totally oblivious to the feelings of others, and you don't necessarily have to have been abused yourself to get that way. Personality may be innate up to a point but you can still choose to be selfish, not genuinely caring...etc.
    I think I agree with this, but it is an area in which I haven't entirely resolved my position philosophically (and may never). The degree to which choice allows people to self-determine whom they are is not clear to me. It is difficult to decipher what falls under choice and just how much of a person is deterministic. In experience it feels as though there is choice, but that could be an illusion.

    I have known people who appear to cause more harm then they were caused, and who make habitual choices to act in a hurtful manner allowing themselves to further evolve their cruelty. In the end I really don't know the relationship between cause-and-effect and choice.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  10. #30
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    I don't know if NFs are generally more susceptible to emotional abuse. I've seen people, across types, complain of being involved in emotionally abusive relationships. Generally, it seems to be correlated with:
    1. Poor self-esteem
    2. A savior complex
    Both of the above make likely victims. Of the NFs I know, all are very accommodating of the relationships in their lives (spouses/family/friends) but the INFJs IRL take the cake in this category...they seem to be (sample of 5 all of whom have taken the test and read the descriptions identifying themselves as INFJs) the most likely to be abused. Their Fe wants to make everything okay for people around them, all the time, at the expense of their own needs. They are also the least likely to ask for help or accept it (Enneagram 2s) but are among the first to offer help. This doesn't make them completely selfless towards everyone - they're still guided, it seems from the outside, by some prioritizing of relationships through a complicated internal process which leads to complete self-abnegation in relation to some (co-dependent relationships) and very 'normal' behavior towards others.

    Overall, they seem far more forgiving of behavior I would consider impolite or inconsiderate and I'm pretty forgiving, myself, I think. They also have less of a need for independence than the ENFs I know so perhaps that has something to do with it as well. I the INFJs but their Fe in overdrive can sometimes sweep everything and everyone in its sway and I'd just liked to be asked first, please
    I wonder how enneagram affects Fe output? Most of the FJs I know are all E2s, while I'm an E1. I definitely see the behavior you've described in my INFJ friends. It makes me want to hug them and slap some sense into them.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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