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  1. #31
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Interesting input, everyone!

    If there is potential wisdom to be offered rooted within some of the ideas in this thread, by all means keep talkin' because I'm interested.

    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #32
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I cant take credit, a friend of mine on the INFJ forum wrote it, he is quite intelligent and I agree with you.

    Fe for NFs has nothing to do with societal etiquette.
    I might need to visit that forum more often, it seems they have some good info.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Anyway, I've always felt Fe is more slanted - in literature as well as on the forums - towards a tie with Si. That's why I tend to be bothered when people think of Fe as pure social etiquette, because while that's an element of it, it isn't applicable in nearly the same way for the NFJ's as it is for the SFJ's (especially ESFJ's). And, it's why on cognitive functions tests my Fe was always pretty darn low...because the tests also tend to slant towards the more superficial elements of Fe, and the more extroverted, hostessing elements to boot.
    I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.

  3. #33
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.
    Because it's extroverted, though, shouldn't there be an action and results oriented rather than perceptive nature to NFJ Feness? Otherwise there's not much difference between the INTJ and the INFJ--IIRC we've had an INTJ discussion on here where INTJs can focus their goal-oriented selves on perceiving when things are off about others, but they lack the Fe to act in a way to fix it.

    How is that different?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #34
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Because it's extroverted, though, shouldn't there be an action and results oriented rather than perceptive nature to NFJ Feness?
    There is action taken:
    We're amazingly adept at detecting these things in others, and in exponential proportion to how well we know the person in question. Once we determine this, our social interaction follows suit, but is always situational to the factors we've determined. For example, if we determine someone is busy, we smile at them and leave them to their attention. If we see that someone is in need of warmth, we show it to them in as sincere a way as we can, which only includes social conventions when we know that person needs them.

  5. #35
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I am definitely not speaking for other INFJ's, as I think this will vary.

    I can understand Fe reading like politeness and sympathy, because frankly I AM much of the time just trying and wanting to be respectful of others. My own needs are more fluid/less important sometimes, and especially in social interactions, I'll adjust my method of communication depending on who I'm interacting with - just because my method of communication isn't a defining element for me to begin with; if anything, it's the tendency to adjust that IS the defining element. As for awkwardness, yeah, I can be totally socially awkward/inept; it's tied to introversion as well as the Ni I think. And tied to what I wrote in my first post on here, the fluidity/confidence I have is hugely dependent on the other person, and how the dynamic itself operates. If the other person is more withdrawn, I have a harder time engaging. If the other person is more animated and confident, I play off that really well. Etc. Also, I've written elsewhere on here that just because I don't personally feel I'll ever connect deeply with someone else, doesn't mean I don't think the person deserves to be treated well and it's not like I don't still want to try to understand them better or lack the curiosity, or at least desire to appreciate them/connect with them on whatever level I can appreciate them on.

    Emotional distance for me could be explained in two ways - 1. I am only really vulnerable/open with those I really want to be open with, trust, want to invest in, and see a deep relationship potential with, and 2. Connecting with people emotionally isn't my natural language anyway. This is probably an Ni/Fi difference. My prime mode isn't necessarily connecting on this level, and I'm not necessarily aiming for that kind of interaction anyway. I'm more interested in topics, issues, philosophy, and the like...more intellectual stuff, not necessarily deeply personal...so yeah, for me I would say I'm not naturally attuned/proficient in honing in on an emotional wavelength. I think I can be really good at making people feel appreciated and liked, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a deep emotional bond in the sense that I think dom-Fi's appreciate and naturally go towards. I like *understanding* people and why they do things, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to need or want to let down my emotional walls with everyone as a means of connecting, or I even want to go there.

    (edit: good lord, I used my quota of 'necessarily's' for the rest of the week. )





    Yeah, for myself, I tend to be more engaged/animated when talking about the larger context, culture, society, and the like. Not so much on the individual level, although with people I'm really close to the emotional engagement applies to those individuals as well.
    Thank you for this perspective. I am very familiar with Fi and channel it when I need to help someone emotionally. Fe is a different animal, and I shouldn't expect the same kind of interactions from Fe users.

    I have to admit, though, it's pretty unsettling when I get the impression that someone understands me so well, but their interaction with me doesn't show awareness of what makes me comfortable or uncomfortable. It's not the INFJs' fault, of course. But please be patient with the INFP lack of Ni. Sometimes we don't "get it".

    Anyway, I've always felt Fe is more slanted - in literature as well as on the forums - towards a tie with Si. That's why I tend to be bothered when people think of Fe as pure social etiquette, because while that's an element of it, it isn't applicable in nearly the same way for the NFJ's as it is for the SFJ's (especially ESFJ's). And, it's why on cognitive functions tests my Fe was always pretty darn low...because the tests also tend to slant towards the more superficial elements of Fe, and the more extroverted, hostessing elements to boot.
    This is something that is helpful to know. Those Si-based descriptions probably color the way I percieve Fe when I'm interacting with people I suspect are INFJs. I need to be more sensitive to the nuances. That said, I didn't mean to imply that the motives for politeness are superficial for the INFJs I know (their senses of moral responsibility to others are very strong indeed), only that the ways they approach it reflect measured benevolence more than warm empathy. It just doesn't sync as well with Fi 'caring'. Of course, Fe is more universal and less self-centered, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

  6. #36
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jane View Post
    This is something that is helpful to know. Those Si-based descriptions probably color the way I percieve Fe when I'm interacting with people I suspect are INFJs. I need to be more sensitive to the nuances. That said, I didn't mean to imply that the motives for politeness are superficial for the INFJs I know (their senses of moral responsibility to others are very strong indeed), only that the ways they approach it reflect measured benevolence more than warm empathy. It just doesn't sync as well with Fi 'caring'. Of course, Fe is more universal and less self-centered, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.
    How close are you with these INFJs? I think you said you aren't very familiar with them. From what I can tell, with the majority of INFJs, if you aren't close or one of their intimates, they won't come across as very warm. I am generally perceived as being pretty cold and even brusque by those that are just acquaintances or now-and-again type friends. I'll stick with discussing impersonal and abstract topics. But anyone who knows me well would say that I am extremely empathetic and caring, on a personal as well as universal level (actually I probably specialize in personal relations due to my variant, sx).

    And I second everything said by cascadeco in this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I am definitely not speaking for other INFJ's, as I think this will vary...
    Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?

  7. #37
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    That makes so much sense that Fe descriptions always seem to have a Si bent. No wonder why even though I'm Fe dominant ENFJ, I always felt like my Fe was broken. Just like the INFJs, my Fe seems to act according to what the situation calls for. In other words, it's very situationally dependent.

  8. #38
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post

    Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?
    I don't know many INFJs, but things about her that might be atypical:

    She seems to thrive on melding into another soul. Though she does like me she clearly likes the high that comes from personally connecting for a moment through a one-on-one discussion or when we exchange glances in a larger social setting and have a shared moment of syncing.

    I mentioned this one in an earlier TypeC thread, but when I was still her student and addressing her formally she sent emails on two occasions, literally saying, "you should know me better than that," and now it's clear that you, LA, were right in that it bothered her to know that I didn't completely understand her. This implies that she needs to be known by those she cares about. I think this is common to NFs or perhaps people in general, but I think it hurt her feelings a little bit that I didn't completely understand her.

    She's more of a romantic, even platonically--for example, she really liked our small, women's only writing class and wrote a heartfelt letter to us expressing her feelings and appreciation (though she did say we weren't allowed to open it in front of her because she'd be embarrassed by her show of emotions, lol).

    I think she takes more interpersonal emotional risks not because it's any less risky for her to be vulnerable but because she craves the deep connections more.

    What are your thoughts, LA?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #39
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I despise those descriptions of Fe, they just sound so empty and trivial; nothing like what I do. In fact I tend to be annoyed by social etiquette if I don't understand what purpose it's serving besides going through the motions. Then again, there are apparently some INFJs that relate to those descriptions, I just never have.
    Etiquette makes me rather anxious. I think I also fail at Fe when there are a myriad of social tensions all bouncing off each other. Also, when everyone hops on some bandwagon, I instinctively start with other explanations. Sometimes the crowd is right about something, and I'm left behind still being devil's advocate.

    The empathy aspect of Fe runs high in me especially when reading body language along with word use. I find everyone uses language differently and in order to form a baseline for what their words mean, it helps to get an overall vibe. Almost all of my adult students have high anxiety about learning a new instrument. I can feel their anxiety in my stomach and pick out specifics about it in their words. A lot of my day is spent depressurizing that anxiety in people. It is almost like a task-oriented counseling session in that they often come in with baggage and leave with less.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #40
    /X\(:: :: )/X\ BlueSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    How close are you with these INFJs? I think you said you aren't very familiar with them. From what I can tell, with the majority of INFJs, if you aren't close or one of their intimates, they won't come across as very warm. I am generally perceived as being pretty cold and even brusque by those that are just acquaintances or now-and-again type friends. I'll stick with discussing impersonal and abstract topics. But anyone who knows me well would say that I am extremely empathetic and caring, on a personal as well as universal level (actually I probably specialize in personal relations due to my variant, sx).

    And I second everything said by cascadeco in this post:


    Also, Usehername, I meant to ask: what differences do you notice, if any, between INFJ sx and INFJ sp (as most INFJs are)?
    I'm only casual friends with two INFJs. I've never had one as a significant other. I'm sure my impressions have a lot to do with this limited experience. I have seen and been the recipient of INFJ 'comforting', but I've never seen one try to help a close loved one in that way. Also, I think I (unreasonably) expect a general warmth, openness and personability from NFs sometimes. That probably skews my perception too.

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