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  1. #21
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Thats the problem, I dont think so. Me and his twin had dinner last night and he expressed the same concerns I did. I would consider us two the closest to him and he doesnt open up about anything to us, much less other friends who are not on a deep level with him.

    He has hundreds upon hundreds of friends, but once you get to the point where me and his twin are at, you are able to see they arent as close to him as they think.

  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I didn't know what a MacGuffin was until a month ago when it showed in my inbox as MW's Word of the Day. MacG's name made so much more sense!

    From The Almighty Wikipedia

    Sometimes, the specific nature of the MacGuffin is not important to the plot such that anything that serves as a motivation serves its purpose. The MacGuffin can sometimes be ambiguous, completely undefined, generic or left open to interpretation.

    Alfred Hitchcock illustrated the term "MacGuffin" with this story:

    "It might be a Scottish name, taken from a story about two men in a train. One man says, 'What's that package up there in the baggage rack?' And the other answers, 'Oh that's a McGuffin.' The first one asks, 'What's a McGuffin?' 'Well,' the other man says, 'It's an apparatus for trapping lions in the Scottish Highlands.' The first man says, 'But there are no lions in the Scottish Highlands,' and the other one answers 'Well, then that's no McGuffin!' So you see, a McGuffin is nothing at all."

    ...Hitchcock's verbal delivery made it clear that the second man has thought up the MacGuffin explanation as a roundabout method of telling the first man to mind his own business.
    So what do you do when you're trying to crack a nut that doesn't want to open? Perhaps a diamond drill.

    Do you pry? Wait until they want to open up? What if they're so banal and boring they've desperately been trying to cover it up? What if they're living some secret life that would destroy their regular life if it was found out? Worst of all what if you get in and there's nothing there at all? It was all pyramid scheme!

    No need to answer this I wonder the same thing myself. I'm partially messing around. Is the lack of disclosure causing a problem? Is this a matter of trying to get on the VIP list or something else?

    Me personally, there's a marked contrast between my general demeanor and what I'm really thinking that I prefer to keep my stink, stank, stunk contained to people that I've thoroughly vetted. More detail here. OTOH, if you peruse any type thread on the forum, you'll see nearly everyone claiming that they don't open up easily so I have no clue anymore.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    I've learned not to meddle. If he wants to say anything he will in his own time. I think we can all agree that ENFJs (along with many other types and people in general) are stubborn.

    Thats why I posted this thread on Typology, its an anonymous and easy way to get peoples opinions and allows you to reflect on things with the help of others.

    I've noticed a type of frustration of ENFJs here with people not understanding, hence why I posted this, I am TRYING to understand him. No hard feelings if Im not the right person for him to talk to, I just want him to be happy and healthy.

  4. #24
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Malkavia, you seem like you care about your friend very much. Has he made comments about feeling misunderstood or that he doesn't have anyone he can fully express himself to? Has he indicated in some way that he is unhappy or unhealthy?

    The reason why I asked some of the questions above is because I'm wondering if his sees his presumed lack of disclosure as a problem.

    No hard feelings if Im not the right person for him to talk to, I just want him to be happy and healthy.
    I mean no personal offense to you when I say this, but in my experience when a person who considers themselves a close friend finds out exactly where they rank on the list of close friends there very much tends to be hard feelings.

    If someone has the feeling that they've given more of themselves to another and they become aware of the imbalance in the relationship it's very jarring. You feel like you've been fooled because the feelings aren't reciprocated in the way the person wanted them to be.

    I had an experience with this earlier this year and it didn't end well. My mother was hospitalized for nearly five months and during that time I was in essential personnel only mode. I lost a couple of friends because besides my immediate family, I only sought support from the three people who I knew could support me in the way I needed to be supported. I'll be explicit about what I needed during that time and why I knew the people I went to could supply it.

    • Hours-long single session conversations about my emotional status and allowing me to vent all of my feelings thoroughly
    • Caring and thoughtful inquiries into my emotional states questions...more than just calling me and asking how I was doing. These people were actually putting thought into my situation and helping me come up with coping mechanisms
    • Willingness to handle and accommodate several highly emotional text messages and emails per day
    • Calls in the middle of the night with me crying and melting down during the worse of it
    • More than just Hallmark card sympathy...these people truly understood being in a situation when a loved one is dying because they had experienced it themselves...they were able to help my navigate through a difficult time and they still are


    These people were able to provide a extremely high level of support without judgment and without me feeling like I was being too much of a burden on them or overwhelming them. I knew these people were emotional soldiers from the get go and that they could handle me.

    The other two people I considered very good friends, but I knew their limitations. I knew because over the years I've seen how they've responded to happenings and situations in their own lives and from this information I basically knew how they would respond to me. Both of them told me that they felt I wasn't including them and that I was separating myself from them. They were right...they knew me well enough to notice that I wasn't relating to them as before and I certainly couldn't tell them why that was so.

    Do you tell a person, you're not emotional strong enough to support me? In my case, why create the drama and tension especially when I'm already in a crisis situation? That's something I kept to myself, but with one of the two people I actually told them exactly that. I haven't spoken to that person in over nine months because as I already knew, they couldn't really cut it when it came down to it. But I was OK with that and still considered them a good friend but they effectively ended the friendship.

    I don't know what the situation is between you and your friend. I know that's it's very important to me and I put full confidence in my ability to accurately assess the character of people I'm close to. I've thankfully had minimal drama with friends, nowhere near the amount other people have with their so-called friends because I'm extremely careful and guarded about who I let close to me, almost excessively so.

    If your friend's very own twin brother says he doesn't open up to him, what else can you do? To me, it basically comes down to:

    1. Is there anything to reveal?
    2. Does he feel a need to reveal it?
    3. If so, who does he reveal it to? If it's not you can you truly accept that? Will it cause damage to a friendship that otherwise is solid and genuine?
    4. If not, what are the consequences of him not revealing?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #25
    Senior Member Malkavia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Malkavia, you seem like you care about your friend very much. Has he made comments about feeling misunderstood or that he doesn't have anyone he can fully express himself to? Has he indicated in some way that he is unhappy or unhealthy?

    The reason why I asked some of the questions above is because I'm wondering if his sees his presumed lack of disclosure as a problem.
    He has not.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I mean no personal offense to you when I say this, but in my experience when a person who considers themselves a close friend finds out exactly where they rank on the list of close friends there very much tends to be hard feelings.

    If someone has the feeling that they've given more of themselves to another and they become aware of the imbalance in the relationship it's very jarring. You feel like you've been fooled because the feelings aren't reciprocated in the way the person wanted them to be.
    No offense taken, I'd much rather you speak your mind.

    and yes it is true, who wouldn't be hurt? All I can do is try not to be hurt and understand that there is nothing I can do about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    1. Is there anything to reveal?
    2. Does he feel a need to reveal it?
    3. If so, who does he reveal it to? If it's not you can you truly accept that? Will it cause damage to a friendship that otherwise is solid and genuine?
    4. If not, what are the consequences of him not revealing?
    For all of those - I don't know. I really dont. I would assume there would be something to reveal when there are topics people normally talk about that he doesnt. (such as how he views his family or relationships, what is he afraid of etc..)

    Will it cause damage? I really hope it doesn't. Thats why I like forums such as these, I can express my thoughts, opinions, and concerns without it hurting anyone else. I can only do my best to understand that its not me, and thats ok.

    What are the consequences? Honestly nothing. This is the way it has always been and we have gotten along fine.

  6. #26
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    I will give you my most honest and straightforward answer.
    I really don't like that feeling of "really close" friends.
    I have friendships that I've kept up with over the years, and I LOVE getting reacquainted with those folks.
    The feeling of those "really close" friendships have always made me feel ill.
    Like queasy... like a wet noodle...like I'm SUFFOCATING.
    I feel so close with all of mankind ALREADY i just don't really need that.
    I prefer privacy and solace to recuperate, not close friends.
    Plus I'm extremely resourceful as far as my own regeneration is concerned...noone ever does it quite right, you know? I'm too picky. And if anyone is near I can't help but feel an urge to submerge, and then i don't get back w/ myself.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Afkan View Post
    I will give you my most honest and straightforward answer.
    I really don't like that feeling of "really close" friends.
    I have friendships that I've kept up with over the years, and I LOVE getting reacquainted with those folks.
    The feeling of those "really close" friendships have always made me feel ill.
    Like queasy... like a wet noodle...like I'm SUFFOCATING.
    I feel so close with all of mankind ALREADY i just don't really need that.
    I prefer privacy and solace to recuperate, not close friends.
    Plus I'm extremely resourceful as far as my own regeneration is concerned...noone ever does it quite right, you know? I'm too picky. And if anyone is near I can't help but feel an urge to submerge, and then i don't get back w/ myself.
    I completely agree with both proteanmix's long posts on her needs and the above. It takes a lot to really be there for us ENFJ's and we don't want to overburden you and then be told we are overburdening someone when we are low ourselves (guilt complex comes in). Just disastrous. Also I do need to be alone for a majority of the time and use Ni which is very long and difficult to figure out and prcoess. I am not the best internal processor.

    But Malkavia you sound like a great friend! ENFP's can be a little flighty imo and not great listeners. Make sure you can be one and consistent because once I let someone into the private world there is no going back and it will ruin the friendship if you are flighty or can't listen. I stop communicating when I am not listened to but was promised I would be. Not fun for me but ENFP's get hurt by this.
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
    Intuitive (N) 51.72% Sensing (S) 48.28%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 69.44% Perceiving (P) 30.56%

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
    so/sx/sp

  8. #28
    Member Ethelred the Unready's Avatar
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    I have 1 very good friend, but even with him I've got my shield up...I just get hurt so damn easily that I don't even know what can/will hurt me. So, as a precaution i guard myself a lot.
    I've got a lot of acquaintances and like them a lot but a real close friendship, a total opening up to another person - scary...
    We could learn a lot from crayons. Some are sharp, some are pretty and some are dull; some have weird names and all are different colours, but they all have to live in the same box.

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