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[MBTI General] "Values"

Mad Hatter

Head Pigeon
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,087
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
-1w
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I've frequently come across the statement, both in what I've read here and elsewhere, that NFs (or maybe INFPs in particular) base their decisions on "strong inner values." This has always seemed a bit quaint, or rather fuzzy, to me, and I couldn't figure out so far what that actually means. To sort it out a bit:

First, to me the notion to "base one's decision on values" is a tautology, since whatever it is on which you base a decision has always to do with a certain value in some sense or another.
For those that are uncomfortable with the word "value" (including myself), maybe it could be replaced by the term "axiom" - in any case, something which lies at the base of whatever we do and which in itself cannot be deduced from something else or reduced any further.

Second, if this principle applies to all types, is it maybe that decisions are not based on values in general, but rather on specific values? Or put another way, is there something like type-specific values? Again, that would strike me as a bit odd since I think that it's not personal values that denote the type, but rather personality structure.

Reading Keirsey, there were many passages where I could relate more to the NT than the NF, and I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm not actually an INTP or something :confused: (T/F being the weakest opposition). But I do like the NF subforum :hug:
Maybe other INFPs simply understand what is meant by the phrase I posted above and can explain it. Thanks in advance :)
 

William K

Uniqueorn
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
986
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Normal reasons people buy a certain type/brand of car
- It's economical
- It's safe
- It's reliable
- It's a way of showing off

My reason
- Oooo, that's a cute looking car
- And there are not many other people driving it! I'll be unique!

Not sure if that answers your question though :p
 

Mad Hatter

Head Pigeon
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,087
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INTP
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sp/sx
Yes, partly :alttongue:

Re-reading my first post, I'm not sure if I made it clear what I'm getting at ... I'll just wait a bit to see how it turns out.
 

Cybin

New member
Joined
Jun 12, 2009
Messages
105
MBTI Type
INFP
Values are essentially moral axioms. Very basically 'it is wrong to hurt someone' could be considered a value, and decisions are made within that framework. Yes, most people have a value system, it's mentioned with INFPs specifically because typically they desire to have an consistent inner value system and considers it to be the boundaries of what is okay to do. Generally more inflexible in that regard when compared to other types.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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INFP
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sp/sx
Yeah, I think of values as "principles", "core beliefs", stuff like that. I agree there is a universal aspect to our values. Jung calls Fi concepts "primordial images" to imply they come from some "collective unconscious" that is "archaic" in character. He also calls them "fundamental ideas" and says "ideas like God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas".

And, sure, everyone has values, but INFP thinking is value based, meaning we judge things with a moral slant or a feeling of what is "good" for matters/things which don't have concrete standards. It's hard to describe what this kind of feeling is - it's not an emotion, and it's not an internal dialogue, although it can include those.

To me, the Ti thought system is like a steel structure. It's hard and has clear edges and it's very precise. It either functions or it doesn't.

Fi is more like a lump of clay that slowly takes shape until it looks like something, and then it's evaluated and either adopted or rejected. It's less precise, because its terms of value are so much more subjective. This doesn't exclude rational thought, because Fi is a rational function, but it influences how we go about judging things.

I've read descriptions that speak of Ti as determining true or false; ie. 1+1=2, that is true. Any other answer is false.

Fi determines what is good and bad, which really cannot be argued with black and white logic. In order for a Fi-dom to evaluate, he/she has to go with what feels right, just as when you finish a drawing or a song and you just know when it is done. We're so much more romantic than those blah Ti-doms :wubbie: haha


Normal reasons people buy a certain type/brand of car
- It's economical
- It's safe
- It's reliable
- It's a way of showing off

My reason
- Oooo, that's a cute looking car
- And there are not many other people driving it! I'll be unique!

Not sure if that answers your question though :p

Fi is not the equivalent of a baby's reaction to a shiny object :doh:
 

the state i am in

Active member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
2,475
MBTI Type
infj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
i think the first step is recognizing the differences between T and F.

F is holistic, vague, ambiguous. it takes its approximation/calculation based on the way everything vaguely relates in an overall sense.

T is specific, direct, linear, causal. it examines specific relationships closely, rather than the essence or mood of the whole.

f is implicit, t is explicit.

Ji is Fi and Ti. it is paired with Pe. this works bc pe is expansive, works outward from specific judgments, actualizing them, seeing how to put them into play. Fi is like a larger web, Ti is small individual pre-made judgments. Ji means you keep your judgments, they are tied to and reinforced by your tertiary perceiving process. you remember them subjectively based on your own experiences. they are your own reactions that get stored, your own immediate responses.

Je is different. it is the method itself. we learn how to do things, how to hone our instincts for action, bc what we keep and store is our introverted perceptions. introversion imposes a rigor for learning, storing, integrating, etc. whereas we store our impressions, and why we are called left-brained and detail-oriented is bc we can only SEE one thing at a time, tho we can judge many things about that simultaneously. whereas p types see many things simultaneously, but only work one stored judgment at a time.

my idea is that values are very different for nfps and nfjs. but holistic judgment, and the way that produces similar enneagram types, creates projects that are very similar and have similar goals. these values are rooted in the self and the other, creating authentic visions/versions of the holism of these spaces (particularly 4 and 9). whereas other COMMON uses for this holism are 2 and sometimes 6 and 7.

i think ifps think about the whole web of implications, they allow the judgment to travel around. if it gets stopped immediately, it can be immediate no, but more Ne allows for more fluid, flexible, and open internal discourse/discussion.

avis, i can easily see you as an intp or an infp. i have a few infp friends who have really strong Te, or they have just learned really solid methods for balancing their Fi with analytical skills from a rigorous education and high natural intelligence. to think about the difference, i would consider your composition process. infp needs more drafting, generally speaking, in order to demonstrate direction.
 

William K

Uniqueorn
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
986
MBTI Type
INFP
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4w5
Fi is not the equivalent of a baby's reaction to a shiny object :doh:

Hey, are you calling my "values" are a baby!? :)

I find it funny though that INFPs can be extremely intractable when you hit their core-value(s) but the majority of the time they are the most laid-back and "Live and let live" type of people.
 

Spamtar

Ghost Monkey Soul
Joined
Sep 1, 2009
Messages
4,468
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
From objective observation I notice most people see "values" as what they think is important. The higher up the hierarchy the more likely this value will have on decision making. I am no different then the rest of the rabble only that I place logic, if not at the peak, then a near second or third on what my values are. (Loyalty, especially family loyalty, might be higher).
To see how it works for example lets assume my value hierarchy had family loyalty as the highest and logic as the 2nd highest. Logic would dictate my opposition to the death penalty, however if the killer killed on of my immediate family member I would want them dead regardless of the logical conflict/hypocrisy.
 

Zenihita

New member
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
50
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4
I've frequently come across the statement, both in what I've read here and elsewhere, that NFs (or maybe INFPs in particular) base their decisions on "strong inner values." This has always seemed a bit quaint, or rather fuzzy, to me, and I couldn't figure out so far what that actually means. To sort it out a bit:

First, to me the notion to "base one's decision on values" is a tautology, since whatever it is on which you base a decision has always to do with a certain value in some sense or another.
For those that are uncomfortable with the word "value" (including myself), maybe it could be replaced by the term "axiom" - in any case, something which lies at the base of whatever we do and which in itself cannot be deduced from something else or reduced any further.

Second, if this principle applies to all types, is it maybe that decisions are not based on values in general, but rather on specific values? Or put another way, is there something like type-specific values? Again, that would strike me as a bit odd since I think that it's not personal values that denote the type, but rather personality structure.

Reading Keirsey, there were many passages where I could relate more to the NT than the NF, and I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm not actually an INTP or something :confused: (T/F being the weakest opposition). But I do like the NF subforum :hug:
Maybe other INFPs simply understand what is meant by the phrase I posted above and can explain it. Thanks in advance :)

I used to be pretty sure that I was a strong T before; Keirsey's temperament descriptions make NFs sound like people very much in touch with their feelings, sentimental and emotional, so I did as well relate to NT descriptions a lot more. I see myself as analytical and even logical :) I wouldn't even say I was an idealist, I considered myself a realist. After I got more information I can see that part of this is because of all those notions that seemed very fuzzy to me too. I still don't think I can explain it quite clearly, but I seem to have a better idea of what it's like.
I guess I prefer the word "principles".

According to this INFPs can have different values.
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
I've frequently come across the statement, both in what I've read here and elsewhere, that NFs (or maybe INFPs in particular) base their decisions on "strong inner values." This has always seemed a bit quaint, or rather fuzzy, to me, and I couldn't figure out so far what that actually means. To sort it out a bit:

First, to me the notion to "base one's decision on values" is a tautology, since whatever it is on which you base a decision has always to do with a certain value in some sense or another.
For those that are uncomfortable with the word "value" (including myself), maybe it could be replaced by the term "axiom" - in any case, something which lies at the base of whatever we do and which in itself cannot be deduced from something else or reduced any further.


Second, if this principle applies to all types, is it maybe that decisions are not based on values in general, but rather on specific values? Or put another way, is there something like type-specific values? Again, that would strike me as a bit odd since I think that it's not personal values that denote the type, but rather personality structure.

Reading Keirsey, there were many passages where I could relate more to the NT than the NF, and I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm not actually an INTP or something :confused: (T/F being the weakest opposition). But I do like the NF subforum :hug:
Maybe other INFPs simply understand what is meant by the phrase I posted above and can explain it. Thanks in advance :)

This is the whole reason that I refer to Fi as the core person function. While it's true that they all have an impact on each other, I honestly believe this is the function that makes up the fundamentals of a person.

Having said that, while everyone has Fi. Not all people are aware of Fi in process, or have a strong grasp/control on how Fi works within them. For me, statements that NF have strong inner values just means that NFs focus much more on their personal values, more so than other people. This is contrasted with a person, who while feeling one thing, has a certain value, dismisses it on the basis that it's just a feeling and therefore irrational.

All actions are irrational at it's core, or rational depending on whichever way you like to perceive things.
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
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1,579
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INFP
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sx/so
I think that Fi is hard to pin down in general, since it is more holistic, internal and less step-by-step than some other processes. Fi values can be things like "every person is entitled to respect" or "one's life should be one's art" or any number of things. I think those values tend to have a universal quality to them, rather than being obviously directly tied to the surrounding culture (although clearly those values are informed by experience).

Since Fi values are more individually conceived and can may be at odds with the surrounding culture, Fi values can be emotionally jarring to Fe users and inexplicably contrary to Te and Ti users. The disturbing quality of Fi is made all the worse since Fi doesn't lend itself well to verbalization, and doesn't provide its own defense to external critiques.

When Fi is in agreement with one's actions, I think it evokes an emotional response similar to what a Ti user feels when evaluating a precise, elegant and correct solution. (Although I believe Fi provides more feeling overtones when evaluating in general.) Unfortunately, Fi (much like Ti) is very good at detecting incongruence so being in completely accordance with one values may be a relatively rare thing.

Both Fi and Ti have, I think, a similar process of discovering the principles that are already inherent. They feel to me less about imposing structure outward, and more about honing and refining towards the inward essence of things.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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sp/sx
I used to be pretty sure that I was a strong T before; Keirsey's temperament descriptions make NFs sound like people very much in touch with their feelings, sentimental and emotional, so I did as well relate to NT descriptions a lot more. I see myself as analytical and even logical :) I wouldn't even say I was an idealist, I considered myself a realist. After I got more information I can see that part of this is because of all those notions that seemed very fuzzy to me too. I still don't think I can explain it quite clearly, but I seem to have a better idea of what it's like.
I guess I prefer the word "principles".

According to this INFPs can have different values.

Keirsey sucks, IMO. I like his temperament system, and that's about it.
I totally agree INFP values are going to vary. I've seen that page before and I agree with a lot of the criticisms of typical INFP profiles.

I don't mind the word "values". I think it's just one of many laymen's interpretations of Jung's terminology. I like his terms because they have additional connotations that are lost when translating to a simpler wording.
 

Mad Hatter

Head Pigeon
Joined
Nov 3, 2009
Messages
1,087
MBTI Type
INTP
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-1w
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Thanks for all the replies so far :)
To be honest, it's a lot of information to digest (which is nice), and it may take a while before I can make an informed reply ;) Specifically, does anyone know a good link that provides information on the functions?
From what I've read so far, they seem to be the crucial element here, but my knowledge about them is rather superficial.
 

Zenihita

New member
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
50
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4
Keirsey sucks, IMO. I like his temperament system, and that's about it.
I totally agree INFP values are going to vary. I've seen that page before and I agree with a lot of the criticisms of typical INFP profiles.
I do too and the profile that they have there is good as well.
And Keirsey is not completely useless, but I think he exaggerates a lot.


Thanks for all the replies so far :)
To be honest, it's a lot of information to digest (which is nice), and it may take a while before I can make an informed reply ;) Specifically, does anyone know a good link that provides information on the functions?
From what I've read so far, they seem to be the crucial element here, but my knowledge about them is rather superficial.

Have you seen this web-site?
Also I would recommend exploring BestFitType.com
 
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