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Thread: "Values"

  1. #1
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Question "Values"

    I've frequently come across the statement, both in what I've read here and elsewhere, that NFs (or maybe INFPs in particular) base their decisions on "strong inner values." This has always seemed a bit quaint, or rather fuzzy, to me, and I couldn't figure out so far what that actually means. To sort it out a bit:

    First, to me the notion to "base one's decision on values" is a tautology, since whatever it is on which you base a decision has always to do with a certain value in some sense or another.
    For those that are uncomfortable with the word "value" (including myself), maybe it could be replaced by the term "axiom" - in any case, something which lies at the base of whatever we do and which in itself cannot be deduced from something else or reduced any further.

    Second, if this principle applies to all types, is it maybe that decisions are not based on values in general, but rather on specific values? Or put another way, is there something like type-specific values? Again, that would strike me as a bit odd since I think that it's not personal values that denote the type, but rather personality structure.

    Reading Keirsey, there were many passages where I could relate more to the NT than the NF, and I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm not actually an INTP or something :confused: (T/F being the weakest opposition). But I do like the NF subforum
    Maybe other INFPs simply understand what is meant by the phrase I posted above and can explain it. Thanks in advance
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  2. #2
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Normal reasons people buy a certain type/brand of car
    - It's economical
    - It's safe
    - It's reliable
    - It's a way of showing off

    My reason
    - Oooo, that's a cute looking car
    - And there are not many other people driving it! I'll be unique!

    Not sure if that answers your question though :P
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  3. #3
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Yes, partly

    Re-reading my first post, I'm not sure if I made it clear what I'm getting at ... I'll just wait a bit to see how it turns out.
    IN SERIO FATVITAS.

    -τὸ γὰρ γράμμα ἀποκτέννει, τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ζῳοποιεῖ-

  4. #4
    Senior Member Cybin's Avatar
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    Values are essentially moral axioms. Very basically 'it is wrong to hurt someone' could be considered a value, and decisions are made within that framework. Yes, most people have a value system, it's mentioned with INFPs specifically because typically they desire to have an consistent inner value system and considers it to be the boundaries of what is okay to do. Generally more inflexible in that regard when compared to other types.

  5. #5
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think of values as "principles", "core beliefs", stuff like that. I agree there is a universal aspect to our values. Jung calls Fi concepts "primordial images" to imply they come from some "collective unconscious" that is "archaic" in character. He also calls them "fundamental ideas" and says "ideas like God, freedom, immortality are just as much feeling-values as they are significant ideas".

    And, sure, everyone has values, but INFP thinking is value based, meaning we judge things with a moral slant or a feeling of what is "good" for matters/things which don't have concrete standards. It's hard to describe what this kind of feeling is - it's not an emotion, and it's not an internal dialogue, although it can include those.

    To me, the Ti thought system is like a steel structure. It's hard and has clear edges and it's very precise. It either functions or it doesn't.

    Fi is more like a lump of clay that slowly takes shape until it looks like something, and then it's evaluated and either adopted or rejected. It's less precise, because its terms of value are so much more subjective. This doesn't exclude rational thought, because Fi is a rational function, but it influences how we go about judging things.

    I've read descriptions that speak of Ti as determining true or false; ie. 1+1=2, that is true. Any other answer is false.

    Fi determines what is good and bad, which really cannot be argued with black and white logic. In order for a Fi-dom to evaluate, he/she has to go with what feels right, just as when you finish a drawing or a song and you just know when it is done. We're so much more romantic than those blah Ti-doms haha


    Quote Originally Posted by William K View Post
    Normal reasons people buy a certain type/brand of car
    - It's economical
    - It's safe
    - It's reliable
    - It's a way of showing off

    My reason
    - Oooo, that's a cute looking car
    - And there are not many other people driving it! I'll be unique!

    Not sure if that answers your question though :P
    Fi is not the equivalent of a baby's reaction to a shiny object
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #6
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think the first step is recognizing the differences between T and F.

    F is holistic, vague, ambiguous. it takes its approximation/calculation based on the way everything vaguely relates in an overall sense.

    T is specific, direct, linear, causal. it examines specific relationships closely, rather than the essence or mood of the whole.

    f is implicit, t is explicit.

    Ji is Fi and Ti. it is paired with Pe. this works bc pe is expansive, works outward from specific judgments, actualizing them, seeing how to put them into play. Fi is like a larger web, Ti is small individual pre-made judgments. Ji means you keep your judgments, they are tied to and reinforced by your tertiary perceiving process. you remember them subjectively based on your own experiences. they are your own reactions that get stored, your own immediate responses.

    Je is different. it is the method itself. we learn how to do things, how to hone our instincts for action, bc what we keep and store is our introverted perceptions. introversion imposes a rigor for learning, storing, integrating, etc. whereas we store our impressions, and why we are called left-brained and detail-oriented is bc we can only SEE one thing at a time, tho we can judge many things about that simultaneously. whereas p types see many things simultaneously, but only work one stored judgment at a time.

    my idea is that values are very different for nfps and nfjs. but holistic judgment, and the way that produces similar enneagram types, creates projects that are very similar and have similar goals. these values are rooted in the self and the other, creating authentic visions/versions of the holism of these spaces (particularly 4 and 9). whereas other COMMON uses for this holism are 2 and sometimes 6 and 7.

    i think ifps think about the whole web of implications, they allow the judgment to travel around. if it gets stopped immediately, it can be immediate no, but more Ne allows for more fluid, flexible, and open internal discourse/discussion.

    avis, i can easily see you as an intp or an infp. i have a few infp friends who have really strong Te, or they have just learned really solid methods for balancing their Fi with analytical skills from a rigorous education and high natural intelligence. to think about the difference, i would consider your composition process. infp needs more drafting, generally speaking, in order to demonstrate direction.

  7. #7
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Fi is not the equivalent of a baby's reaction to a shiny object
    Hey, are you calling my "values" are a baby!?

    I find it funny though that INFPs can be extremely intractable when you hit their core-value(s) but the majority of the time they are the most laid-back and "Live and let live" type of people.
    4w5, Fi>Ne>Ti>Si>Ni>Fe>Te>Se, sp > so > sx

    appreciates being appreciated, conflicted over conflicts, afraid of being afraid, bad at being bad, predictably unpredictable, consistently inconsistent, remarkably unremarkable...

    I may not agree with what you are feeling, but I will defend to death your right to have a good cry over it

    The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. ~ Bertrand Russell

  8. #8
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    From objective observation I notice most people see "values" as what they think is important. The higher up the hierarchy the more likely this value will have on decision making. I am no different then the rest of the rabble only that I place logic, if not at the peak, then a near second or third on what my values are. (Loyalty, especially family loyalty, might be higher).
    To see how it works for example lets assume my value hierarchy had family loyalty as the highest and logic as the 2nd highest. Logic would dictate my opposition to the death penalty, however if the killer killed on of my immediate family member I would want them dead regardless of the logical conflict/hypocrisy.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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  9. #9
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    I never did like that term.

  10. #10
    Member Zenihita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avis View Post
    I've frequently come across the statement, both in what I've read here and elsewhere, that NFs (or maybe INFPs in particular) base their decisions on "strong inner values." This has always seemed a bit quaint, or rather fuzzy, to me, and I couldn't figure out so far what that actually means. To sort it out a bit:

    First, to me the notion to "base one's decision on values" is a tautology, since whatever it is on which you base a decision has always to do with a certain value in some sense or another.
    For those that are uncomfortable with the word "value" (including myself), maybe it could be replaced by the term "axiom" - in any case, something which lies at the base of whatever we do and which in itself cannot be deduced from something else or reduced any further.

    Second, if this principle applies to all types, is it maybe that decisions are not based on values in general, but rather on specific values? Or put another way, is there something like type-specific values? Again, that would strike me as a bit odd since I think that it's not personal values that denote the type, but rather personality structure.

    Reading Keirsey, there were many passages where I could relate more to the NT than the NF, and I'm beginning to doubt whether I'm not actually an INTP or something :confused: (T/F being the weakest opposition). But I do like the NF subforum
    Maybe other INFPs simply understand what is meant by the phrase I posted above and can explain it. Thanks in advance
    I used to be pretty sure that I was a strong T before; Keirsey's temperament descriptions make NFs sound like people very much in touch with their feelings, sentimental and emotional, so I did as well relate to NT descriptions a lot more. I see myself as analytical and even logical I wouldn't even say I was an idealist, I considered myself a realist. After I got more information I can see that part of this is because of all those notions that seemed very fuzzy to me too. I still don't think I can explain it quite clearly, but I seem to have a better idea of what it's like.
    I guess I prefer the word "principles".

    According to this INFPs can have different values.

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