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  1. #31
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Ironically I read Blackcat's Type Five profile before coming to this thread again.

    Anyhoo, what's up with the disavowal of your influence? It's like an ENTJ turning up and saying, oh no, no, I don't have much effect on what happens, I don't decide anything really. But you guys do create environments, you do direct action, you do seek to get inside people. You do.

    Are you guys saying you DON'T like doing that kind of thing? You don't like people, you don't like being with them, you don't like knowing what's right and wrong for them, you don't like helping?


    (More to the point perhaps, are you saying you have a choice?)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #32
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I can choose how I behave around people. I can choose how I treat others. Just as others can choose how to respond to me. You can't "help" spontaneous emotions, but you can choose how you react to them. I don't ascribe that level of power to myself, that I can sing Odysseus off the mast into my watery grave. How do I have any more power over someone than anyone else?

    I will say this. In the garage where I worked, if I was deeply upset or sad, if the silence inside me took me over, the social part of the garage ground to a halt. I was astonished to see my silence or my intense sadness spread like a wave through the others. It was embarrassing. It only compounded my confusion and my need to flee - which I did 99% of the time to get control of myself, but when I couldn't, the roof came down around our ears. A lot of horrible things were happening to me at that time - I was under tremendous stress, and when I finally warped under the strain, they came down with me, and to this day, I CANNOT understand it. Even my foreman commented on it once. When I arrived in a good mood, the garage was in a good mood. When I arrived distraught or exhausted, the energy levels dropped.

    I don't know what to make of it. I never will. Though I must say, I've had others in my life that did that very same thing to me, had that effect on me.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
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    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  3. #33
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Overreact to everything they say- like laugh really hard at a joke they make that shouldn't be that funny.

    edit: oh, insulting them so dryly that they can't tell if you're kidding or now can weird them out.

    example,
    (i open my drawer under my desk)
    enfj: cool shot glass.
    me: thanks, don't you have the same one?
    enfj: haha, no, but I probably need one.
    me: Oh... they gave it to me at orientation.
    enfj: Ohhh, really? You're so special.
    me: Yes, I am. Why didn't they give you one? Maybe you didn't deserve it.
    enfj: .... ?
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  4. #34
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nynesneg View Post
    What's wrong with that? I love helping people feel better! If I can do something special for them in the slightest way it makes life seem more worthwhile... I made some teddy bears for sick kids in the hospital the other day and my entire night felt more at peace for helping them feel loved during a difficult time. I guess the Fe perspective can be explained in my NF Epiphany thread...

    So the entire complaints in this thread are about people who felt "manipulated" by the care/connection from an ENFJ, and didn't want to be understood. In their POV the natural ENFJ made them too comfortable opening up and conveyed a false sense of warmth?

    Am I getting it now?
    Nothing is wrong with that, and no one seems to be complaining. People are just discussing how ENFJs come across and analyzing their behavior (pretty much what goes on at this board ). If anything, most of the posts in here seem to find this aspect of ENFJs charming.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #35
    Member sunshinEnfp's Avatar
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    Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

    Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

    My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

    Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

    Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).

  6. #36
    Senior Member Heinel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinEnfp View Post
    Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

    Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

    My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

    Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

    Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).
    Yeah, I met an ENFJ that talked really loud to an ENTJ about how he is so "not into manipulating." I don't know. It just seems so weird since he did manipulate people, including me.
    Check out my blog: http://OrnateRitual.com

  7. #37
    Senior Member nynesneg's Avatar
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    You see a side of us "manipulating people" that is completely invisible to our own eyes.


    We are unconscious of it 97% of the time.
    3w2


    Those who are content being normal lack the depth and passion to rise above mediocracy.
    To push beyond their natural abilities and create a reality from their dreams.

  8. #38
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinEnfp View Post
    Oh, it's so interesting to see the ENFJs post here because I really feel like they DO NOT understand the effect they have or that it is something special and something rare that most people cannot do.

    Here's the thing with your subconscious manipulation: you are just encouraging people to be/do the best thing. The only thing is... there is bias in that. Sometimes the best thing in your eyes is not THE BEST THING in general. I hope I am communicating this clearly.

    My closest friends are ENFJs and I am kind of dating one, and... while they are all different people, it's interesting to see how they can make one feel. For the most part, I love being around them. But I have seen how one of my less-than-healthy friends has manipulated ME into trying to feel good about doing something, that it would be "the best thing," when really, she was only looking out for herself. If not for MBTI, I probably would not have noticed... it's so subtle.

    Not sure what my point is... but I guess I am trying to say... even though you are just BEING YOURSELVES, a lot of times, there's a motive (even if it is just helping people) behind most of what you do in a social context. It's what has people opening up to you and saying things that they would not even tell their closest friends. You disarm people and I know that I try to fight it with some of my ENFJ friends, but a lot of times, I find myself weak in their presence... it's like it's a super power and I can see it happening to me, I can see myself falling into their trap of what they want, but I am helpless to stop it.

    Of course, this is just mostly with my more manipulative friends (whom I did not realize were as manipulative as they are until I read MBTI and was able to really analyze and for the first time, see their behavior).
    Sunshine...eh...not really sure where to start. As ENFJs mature, they become more aware of their "power". I try not to use it selfishly, but I'm probably at about 56% non-awareness as opposed to 99%. When I do "use" my influence, I try to ask myself "how is this helping me"? When I come up with an answer, I'll sometimes just let the scenario play out without my involvement (i.e. I won't say/do anything).

    I'm learning that my influence should be requested rather than forced; i.e. when somebody asks my opinion concerning something, or I'm in a mentoring relationship with someone--even in those cases, I've got to check myself to make sure that the direction I'm steering them in is one that is most beneficial to them, rather than most (or partly) beneficial to me.

    I don't think ENFJs are naturally selfish (at least not more than anybody else); I think ENFJs are naturally oblivious. When we come to terms with the responsibility this power over people brings, then we can either be responsible with it, like I try to be (not that I'm perfect), or selfish as your friends are being.

    I also think ENFJs are probably most instinctually driven (and have the least natural control) when it comes to sex. Most of the time, that is our weakest point with our power, and if driven by that drive, we can be extremely manipulative. We are the Don Juans, and Leonardo DiCaprios of the world, where, so long as we're well dressed, we can get just about any girl into bed with us. That's not from personal experience, I was taught early-on how terrible that is, but I can testify that I've come close to this point more than once. One knows when they are in control here. One knows where it leads. It's a dangerous power, especially in immoral hands.

    To summarize:
    -ENFJs Have the Power to Influence/Manipulate
    -Most of the time they are unaware, until maturity kicks in.
    -ENFJs are not more selfish then anyone else, but can use this power for themselves as well as others.
    -ENFJs are most manipulative when it comes to their sex-drive, so, if you're not a wait-til-marriage kind of a person, at least resist their charm until you can get to know theme better. We have the power to create intimacy rather quickly, the more confident we are in ourselves.
    Love is the point.

  9. #39
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinel View Post
    Yeah, I met an ENFJ that talked really loud to an ENTJ about how he is so "not into manipulating." I don't know. It just seems so weird since he did manipulate people, including me.
    *sigh* How so Heinel?
    Love is the point.

  10. #40
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    I will say this. In the garage where I worked, if I was deeply upset or sad, if the silence inside me took me over, the social part of the garage ground to a halt. I was astonished to see my silence or my intense sadness spread like a wave through the others. It was embarrassing. It only compounded my confusion and my need to flee - which I did 99% of the time to get control of myself, but when I couldn't, the roof came down around our ears. A lot of horrible things were happening to me at that time - I was under tremendous stress, and when I finally warped under the strain, they came down with me, and to this day, I CANNOT understand it. Even my foreman commented on it once. When I arrived in a good mood, the garage was in a good mood. When I arrived distraught or exhausted, the energy levels dropped.
    This isn't a comment on you specifically, but I've seen similar situations with people, so I can wager a guess. Based on previous stories, I am assuming you were one of the more dominate personalities in the shop. That's part of it. Regardless of MBTI type, dominate personalities can often dictate the mood of the group.

    To add an ENFJ twist to it...

    Most likely, when you were in a good mood you did all sorts of little things that helped others get into a good mood themselves. Natural things (not manipulative!) that sort of add up - like joking around, smiling, taking a personal interest in others, being feisty, having fun at your job, etc. Over time, people can psychologically lean on that type of energy injection yet not even realize it. They adapt to you elevating the mood - and unconsciously expect it. They quit bringing their own joy into work with them because they don't need to. So when your mood turned bad, it created a hole, and caused the mood of the shop to appear to match your mood.

    Of course, this doesn't even mention those people that genuinely liked you and didn't like to see you in stress. That's part of it too.

    Now, none of this is your responsibility or fault. That's important. But I figured I'd provide at least one explanation.

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