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  1. #231
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Look no further, my good lady! Only mosey over to Whatever's "hate thread", then lock and load!
    Are you sure I'm allowed? I don't want to get in trouble or anything.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  2. #232
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Well, we're already over there complaining loudly! Join us!
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  3. #233
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    I dont hate intp's, yet. but I am curious to know how one might go about judgjeing people they have never met. I can can some pretty strong opinions myself but only when someone is unable to admit the other side of the issue. From what I have seen intp's are highly critical and quick to consider broad sweeping and very judgmental beliefs . I can choose to make logical choices over the worth of another human being but it takes great effort for me to over come how worthless I feel for judging another person. I am sure intp's dont have this issue. can someone enlighten me? ENFJ Profile
    I don't hate anyone. Hatred is a projection of self-hatred. Let's just call that my twisted sense of humor. It never occurred to me to take any of what you said personally. As I read your response, I was analyzing it and thinking over ways to respond to your arguments. We all judge other people. There is no way, unless you are brain dead, going senile, or happen to be less than fours years of age, that you will not judge people in some way. How you judge people depends on your own personal experience, personality type, self-esteem, and present mood.

    I do feel for people who are suffering in the world, but it would make more sense to me to give them the means to support themselves over the long term. You can feed people now, but by doing so, are you starving future generations? If you build an important road that can carry relief supplies across a desert, that road will remain in service for decades. It may mean the difference between food reach people regularly and at significantly less cost, or reaching infrequently at more cost. The money might feed several thousand people for a month or two. Once you have the road, that same amount of money in the future will go much further, and feed many more helpless starving children.

  4. #234
    Senior Member theshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    I don't hate anyone. Hatred is a projection of self-hatred. Let's just call that my twisted sense of humor. It never occurred to me to take any of what you said personally. As I read your response, I was analyzing it and thinking over ways to respond to your arguments. We all judge other people. There is no way, unless you are brain dead, going senile, or happen to be less than fours years of age, that you will not judge people in some way. How you judge people depends on your own personal experience, personality type, self-esteem, and present mood.

    I do feel for people who are suffering in the world, but it would make more sense to me to give them the means to support themselves over the long term. You can feed people now, but by doing so, are you starving future generations? If you build an important road that can carry relief supplies across a desert, that road will remain in service for decades. It may mean the difference between food reach people regularly and at significantly less cost, or reaching infrequently at more cost. The money might feed several thousand people for a month or two. Once you have the road, that same amount of money in the future will go much further, and feed many more helpless starving children.
    It wasn't an argument."IT WAS A JOKE" you asked to see ways an enfj might "manipulate" someone. So I did what I often did what I might do to a person that was being unrealistic. I twisted you argument around. I wasnt even being that serious. really! but to me it didnt really matter if it was logical. only if it resulted in the response I was looking for. and it worked...... in fact way more than I meant it too. my response was tailored entirely too your post and does not in any way reflect my actual beliefs..... but you wanted to see an enfj doing manipulation.... so thats what you got. I said don't take it personally and meant "dont consider this as my actual opinion of you" I should have been more clear. clearly I understand the value in makeing impersonal decisions. my stance is not against them..... again the whole point of my response was to show you some of the tactics I would use to make some one more aware of the other persons state/opionins/beliefs.

    edit::any chance im talking a female intp? I ask this really for no good reason other than the fact that I am looking for one to help me understand this possibly intp girl that is into me. so lets just call it being hopefull

    edit........again: "I don't hate ENFJs, yet. But I am curious to know more about just how an ENFJ might go about manipulating someone. I can be pretty manipulative myself, but only when backed into a corner. I had learn the mechanics of manipulation, and I'll bet my wege pressure point doll (acupuncture doll) enfj's don't take the time to do it that way.Can some enlighted with a scenario?"

    to clarify. mechanics? Im just really good at telling people what they want to hear." and also I know exactly what a person doesnt want to hear". your right I dont have a system "to much practice too need a system??". all that I do is "know" what to say in order to get the response I am looking for. I am currently involved with a custody battle. I plan on testifying for my mother.. and our lawyer LOVES how I say things. which....ummm I dont think thats a good thing. but whatever

    that being said. enfj's do plan things out. especially when it involves crushing the evil enemy enemy. it boils down too this. we are all people people and like to make others feel good. but knowing how to do that also allows us the ability to do othewise

    also other enfj's let me know if I say something that is way off of base ok!

  5. #235
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    It wasn't an argument."IT WAS A JOKE"
    Thanks for the demonstration, but I'm not sure I understand. Were you trying to elicit (any) response from me? Was it that you knew I would try it analyze what you said, even though it was actually meaningless?

    I don't see how that is manipulation because you did not even temporarily change my mind about anything. A person is manipulated when they are tricked into doing or thinking something they would not otherwise have done or thought, and manipulation is only ever temporary. For example, you go into a car dealership wanting to buy a ford, but walk out with a BMW, an over priced warranty, and $500 worth of "GAP Insurance". Persuasion is closely related in that some of the psychology involved overlaps with manipulation, except that when you persuade someone you are winning them over to your way of thinking, heart and mind.

  6. #236
    Senior Member LostInNerSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    to clarify. mechanics? Im just really good at telling people what they want to hear." and also I know exactly what a person doesnt want to hear". your right I dont have a system "to much practice too need a system??". all that I do is "know" what to say in order to get the response I am looking for. I am currently involved with a custody battle. I plan on testifying for my mother.. and our lawyer LOVES how I say things. which....ummm I dont think thats a good thing. but whatever
    Ok, I just read this part. That makes sense. And no, I'm not a female intp.

  7. #237
    Senior Member theshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    Thanks for the demonstration, but I'm not sure I understand. Were you trying to elicit (any) response from me? Was it that you knew I would try it analyze what you said, even though it was actually meaningless?

    I don't see how that is manipulation because you did not even temporarily change my mind about anything. A person is manipulated when they are tricked into doing or thinking something they would not otherwise have done or thought, and manipulation is only ever temporary. For example, you go into a car dealership wanting to buy a ford, but walk out with a BMW, an over priced warranty, and $500 worth of "GAP Insurance". Persuasion is closely related in that some of the psychology involved overlaps with manipulation, except that when you persuade someone you are winning them over to your way of thinking, heart and mind.
    ok then we will call in persuasion instead. Like I said in my original post to you, manipulation strikes strongly against how I like to deal with people, but this natural charisma if you will, enable me to persuade people I dislike to put themselves into less agreeable positions. which I could then use them against themselves. kinda like persuading the Indians to give up there land for an empty cause.
    Last edited by theshadow; 01-27-2008 at 01:23 PM.

  8. #238
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Late response, and I'm doing this in a hurry. But first, thanks for your insights into this, TheShadow.
    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    In a stange way I can see how my behavior could be seen like that. I often enjoy performing just for performing sake. even if I am terrible its fun to get up there and "go down in flames" and then Even if I completely sucked and new it. I would content knowing that what I did was possibly the worst attempt at "whatever" the person had probably seen and if nothing else my ridiculous "false confidence" would let that person feel superior "good". so it serves a double purpose. I enjoy performing. and I enjoy making people laugh.
    He didn't sing, I used singing as an example. I really thought about his logic. I think the was above average in pure logic skills, but didn't appreciate it very much. He thought that "logic" is just something that some people need to be convinced, but it's not something he would use himself to make up his mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by theshadow View Post
    Perhaps it was because He really believed you were the one that should hold that position.
    Well, you are right. I'm sure now that he ment to do something good and I was unsure, but the points I was unsure about were related to logical career prospects. He used unusual points to convince me working there, something that went against my (vague) knowledge of economics. He didn't want to discuss economics, because he was in the company for the ethical message it gave and the great atmosphere he enjoyed, plus the people in there. It actually makes me a bit sad to think that I had such strong feelings against an ethically working company.. yeah, he had my best interests in mind, and also that of humanity's. Still, I would have liked to be provided with reasons that were acceptable to me. But, as said, it's a bit sad.

    Ok those points are ok, telling that it's ethical, improves the conditions of people etc. But, he used the superiority of the beliefs to counter any logical points directly. It annoyed me, because the issues weren't handled that way. But, as said, I should have gave him a chance, and I should not have suspected his motivations.

    Hmm have to quit and leave, I'm late

  9. #239
    Senior Member theshadow's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post

    He didn't sing, I used singing as an example. I really thought about his logic. I think the was above average in pure logic skills, but didn't appreciate it very much. He thought that "logic" is just something that some people need to be convinced, but it's not something he would use himself to make up his mind.
    sounds about right. logic is NOT "for me atleast" a passion it is a very usufull tool though.


    Ok those points are ok, telling that it's ethical, improves the conditions of people etc. But, he used the superiority of the beliefs to counter any logical points directly. It annoyed me, because the issues weren't handled that way. But, as said, I should have gave him a chance, and I should not have suspected his motivations.
    I think this does show a lack of understanding about you. and I understand why this is very irritating. undercertain circumstances I will push values signifigance over logic purely in hopes that the other person will "see the better way" but this is very rare behaviour and the very few times I do this "on purpose atleast" is when I am trying to really connect with people I want to know that who ever it is that I am investing in atleast is able to respect me. to me, I am capable of admitting that others are right, if they are unwilling to agree shouldn't they at least admit that I am as well? even if it is for different reasons.......... Ok I can see how that might not go over so well for an nt.

  10. #240
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    Reasons to hate an ENFJ:

    These are some negative experiences I have had with ENFJ's I Have known:

    Manipulative as all hell. If you do something they don't agree with they can manipulate their whole gang to hate you/look down upon you. They never show anyone their real selves/their quirks and will hate on you for being unique and getting more attention than them. Like to be the leader or the Queen Bee and can't handle it when someone is in a higher social position than them. They like to be in everybody's business and manipulate their way into your personal life but will never open to you about theirs. Judgmental, think that their way is the only way. Have standards that they expect of others but do not live up to themselves. Have a problem minding their own business. Expect others to conform to their life view. Can be dramatic if immature: drama queens, EXTREMELY needy and clingy, NEVER admit when they are wrong, teacher's pets, suck ups, never express their true opinions, feel like they always must be Proper and maintain a social mask, don't like it when you call them out on their bullshit. They act like the victim when you call them out.

    I kinda feel bad for them, they never express their feelings they just hold them all in and will only show positive feelings. I lived w/ an ENFJ chick, and have 2 other ENFJ friends one female the other male(he was my roomate for one year as well). They seem normal, intelligent, fun, witty, leaders, organised, and nice on the outside but, are a COMPLETE mess on the inside. They come across as confident but really struggle with self esteem. I ended up having to maintain psychological as well as physical distance from these people. They are not as transparent as other types and therefore can easily manipulate others, ruin people's images and reputations and still maintain a clean slate. There are very good personality traits but its good to keep them at a distance. They are more like an activity buddy but NO MORE!

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