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  1. #201
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    You make a compelling argument, Armstrong! One that I would readily assent to -- outside this thread.

    However! Metal seems to be insisting that not only is his logic in full control of his cognition at all times, even when under the duress imposed by an Evil Soul-Snatching ENFJ but also that his emotions play no role in his decision making. His overarching implication is that feelings are inferior in the light of logic and the Fe dominants are to steer away from what is essentially what they are. Fe dominant. If ENFJs became more like him, we'd be "better people".

    There lies the fallacy. We'd become logic-tainted Fe dominants who would be more inclined to manipulate because we would be disenfranchised from our locus of power. His intuition about an ENFJ's motivation seems shoddy at best.


    Pardon my puzzled shrug at his stack of swiss cheese.

    In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation. They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable. When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    There lies the fallacy. We'd become logic-tainted Fe dominants who would be more inclined to manipulate because we would be disenfranchised from our locus of power. His intuition about an ENFJ's motivation seems shoddy at best.
    It seems like in some way, ENFJs want the focus to be on the other person...in other words....to try to make them feel good, encourage them, etc. Why do you think that is? Is it to take the actual focus off of the ENFJ?

  3. #203
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation.
    You believe more so than any other type? (I'm seriously asking, as I've never executed this abhorrent behavior myself).


    They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable.
    That's because it would truly BE inexcusable and contemptible.


    When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.
    This woman - she's your "model" for the type or have you known others? Did they ALL do this? If so, do you live near power lines, a Superfund site, or a former a-test field that causes ENFJ mutants? I've never met another one that was manipulative - though I don't doubt that they can be. (Heart, Substitute and Whatever stand as witnesses to that.)

    I've seen them in the grip of their inferior function and it can be ... shocking. Brutal, I can attest to. Scathing, I can attest to. Pushy. Angry. Lambasting. I've seen one pull a "death by a thousand cuts" maneuver that was pretty stunning. Does that count in your mind as a manipulation tactic? I suppose I've lacked the subtlety to pull off such a thing. When I want something/someone, I go for it/them. If I want a certain outcome, I play hard and fast, but not underhanded. If I can't win something or someone over by being myself, resorting to playacting cheapens the victory of gaining a new friend or getting what I worked so hard for. If I'm angry, YOU KNOW. There's no "gee, I wonder if Pink is mad..."

    Why tarnish the trophy?

    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    It seems like in some way, ENFJs want the focus to be on the other person...in other words....to try to make them feel good, encourage them, etc. Why do you think that is? Is it to take the actual focus off of the ENFJ?
    I have no choice about making people the "center". I couldn't ignore them even if I wanted to, which is why I can be easily brutalized and manipulated myself by those I love and trust. This is why I have so much trouble grasping the idea of grand manipulation (unless I was trying to bring down a real bastard - and that falls under the rules of war, of which no one is immune...) I like to be part of the whole, not the star. That would defeat the purpose of my primary occupation: People watching.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #204
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    You believe more so than any other type? (I'm seriously asking, as I've never executed this abhorrent behavior myself).




    That's because it would truly BE inexcusable and contemptible.




    This woman - she's your "model" for the type or have you known others? Did they ALL do this? If so, do you live near power lines, a Superfund site, or a former a-test field that causes ENFJ mutants? I've never met another one that was manipulative - though I don't doubt that they can be. (Heart, Substitute and Whatever stand as witnesses to that.)

    I've seen them in the grip of their inferior function and it can be ... shocking. Brutal, I can attest to. Scathing, I can attest to. Pushy. Angry. Lambasting. I've seen one pull a "death by a thousand cuts" maneuver that was pretty stunning. Does that count in your mind as a manipulation tactic? I suppose I've lacked the subtlety to pull off such a thing. When I want something/someone, I go for it/them. If I want a certain outcome, I play hard and fast, but not underhanded. If I can't win something or someone over by being myself, resorting to playacting cheapens the victory of gaining a new friend or getting what I worked so hard for. If I'm angry, YOU KNOW. There's no "gee, I wonder if Pink is mad..."

    Why tarnish the trophy?
    I believe that most ENFJs live their entire life as acceptable, contributing, and "good" people. To answer weather or not I base my opinions on one certain person, I do not. The fault would be my own for being far to general in the implication that I was generalizing the entire type. I am actually rendering a description of ENFJs who are very intelligent, and know that fact. Those more intelligent are the most susceptible to employ their amazingly effective tactics of coercion, that are based on their inner moral beliefs. My experience with this certain individual only prompted me to analyze the type more, and had piqued my curiosity as a type as a whole. I must admit that of the 16 types the ENFJ tends to fascinate me the at the moment, that is until something more interesting comes along. For the time being, however, I wish to understand all that I can about this type. (Hence the reason for my post here in the first place)
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    I have no choice about making people the "center". I couldn't ignore them even if I wanted to, which is why I can be easily brutalized and manipulated myself by those I love and trust. This is why I have so much trouble grasping the idea of grand manipulation (unless I was trying to bring down a real bastard - and that falls under the rules of war, of which no one is immune...) I like to be part of the whole, not the star. That would defeat the purpose of my primary occupation: People watching.
    Ah.....then it seems like the difference between ENFJ and say ENTJ (since we are the two vacillaters)...would be that the F makes people the center...and the T makes the problem/solution/goal the center? Also...for the most part, I am good at ignoring people if need be....which is a LOT of the time when I am teaching. Yes...to the manipulation which is SO hurtful with those you love. I find that I can be part of the whole, but I will be the star as well, if necessary. Especially...if I think that the "star" is incapable. I like to people watch, but find myself people directing more often due to my work.

  6. #206
    Senior Member marm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armstrongvk12 View Post
    Ah.....then it seems like the difference between ENFJ and say ENTJ (since we are the two vacillaters)...would be that the F makes people the center...and the T makes the problem/solution/goal the center? Also...for the most part, I am good at ignoring people if need be....which is a LOT of the time when I am teaching. Yes...to the manipulation which is SO hurtful with those you love. I find that I can be part of the whole, but I will be the star as well, if necessary. Especially...if I think that the "star" is incapable. I like to people watch, but find myself people directing more often due to my work.
    My dad is an ENTJ and he is more focused on other people than anyone else I know. Of course, he isn't a people watcher. He does want to understand people, but ultimately he wants to help people. He wants to inspire and influence. He wants to lead and guide. However, he does like people just for the sake of relating to them. He needs people and always has many friends.

    I don't know if he is typical.

  7. #207
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    In all fairness, I do not believe that ENFJs should be more like myself, as society requires a balance of dispositions in order not to become dysfunctional.
    I agree wholeheartedly with this. The greatest qualm I have for this type, however, is that they will readily manipulate others without hesitation. They do this, because they believe that they are doing so in a quest to attain a greater good for the subject being controlled or for humanity in general. The ability to make a decision out of one's own free will/accord is one of the most fundamental aspects of humanity, and an undeniable right. When the ENFJ circumvents this, because they believe they are doing so for a "good" reason it tends to strike my personal values/belief system in a manner which I find inexcusable. When I speak out, only to inform the individual who is being "rope a doped" the ENFJ will almost always cast me in an "evil" light, proposing that if I dared to disagree with them, I must be a bad person, not worth listening to.
    How many ENFJ's have you known? The person you're describing to me sounds like a busy body with nothing better to do. I have a good ENFJ friend who is there if you need her, but doesn't poke around in others business at all! She doesn't gossip, isn't manipulative and definitely not bossy.

    Also the more I get into MBTI the more I realize that everyone is different. It's an indicator, but not everyone's the same. My Husband is an INTJ and while you may share similarities with one another, you are different people. I believe that your upbringing comes into play along with MBTI as well as neuroticism and your mental health.

    Oh well not trying to argue with you or anything just my opinion.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  8. #208
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    How many ENFJ's have you known? The person you're describing to me sounds like a busy body with nothing better to do. I have a good ENFJ friend who is there if you need her, but doesn't poke around in others business at all! She doesn't gossip, isn't manipulative and definitely not bossy.

    Also the more I get into MBTI the more I realize that everyone is different. It's an indicator, but not everyone's the same. My Husband is an INTJ and while you may share similarities with one another, you are different people. I believe that your upbringing comes into play along with MBTI as well as neuroticism and your mental health.

    Oh well not trying to argue with you or anything just my opinion.
    I have known many people that are ENFJs, most of whom are benign, very good at understanding and supporting people, and some of the best friends that one could ask for . The person I describe had an upbringing that was shaky at best. I do agree that while MBTI types are good at classifying people into a general group, that all share similar characteristics, people are going to be inherently different at a personal level.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

  9. #209
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    I have known many people that are ENFJs, most of whom are benign, very good at understanding and supporting people, and some of the best friends that one could ask for . The person I describe had an upbringing that was shaky at best. I do agree that while MBTI types are good at classifying people into a general group, that all share similar characteristics, people are going to be inherently different at a personal level.
    Agreed. Thanks for going easy on me.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  10. #210
    More human than human MetalWounds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    Agreed. Thanks for going easy on me.
    Haha It's to early to be mean. But sure, anytime.
    I'm doing science and I'm still alive

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