[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Dissecting the INFP Fi-Si Loop

[cascadeco]

Nolla talked a bit on how the INFP Fi-Si loop can be a healthy thing.

When I find that one of my most basic, fundamental assumptions about something are wrong, it's the Fi-Si loop that comes in and begins laying the new, healthier ground work. (Like the stuff I shared in my blog recently.) The brain creates and strengthens neural pathways through repetition of thought and action. I now believe that it's the very repetition of the Fi-Si loop that allows what otherwise might be a simple thought to become part of who I am.

The Fi-Si loop is the very mechanism that allows me to be my values, if you will. It is because I am able to contemplate a topic through so thoroughly that something like a personal value can affect all aspects of who I am.

The Fi-Si loop is quite possible the foundation for one of the INFP's most important strengths. Learning how to wield it is critical, because it's not about stopping the Fi-Si loop, but choosing what loops are worth allowing myself to process.

I think this is true for all of the various loops as far as cog. function theory goes. They're not inherently bad. They CAN be, but they also CAN be incredibly positive. There are positive and negative elements of all. Same can be said for 'inferior' functions. For example, most of the time the inferior is viewed/portrayed/discussed only in its negative light here on the forums. But for myself as an INFJ, I can't tell you how positive Se is for me in my life, and I see it as a very positive, important, critical, defining element/piece to my personality much moreso than a negative thing.

Anyway.. cool that you're exploring all of this!

 

[OrangeAppled]

Nolla talked a bit on how the INFP Fi-Si loop can be a healthy thing.

When I find that one of my most basic, fundamental assumptions about something are wrong, it's the Fi-Si loop that comes in and begins laying the new, healthier ground work. (Like the stuff I shared in my blog recently.) The brain creates and strengthens neural pathways through repetition of thought and action.

The Fi-Si loop is the very mechanism that allows me to be my values, if you will. It is because I am able to contemplate a topic through so thoroughly and reptitiously that something like a personal value can affect every aspect of who I am.

The Fi-Si loop is quite possibly the foundation for one of the INFP's most important strengths. Learning how to wield it is critical, because it's not about stopping the Fi-Si loop, but choosing what loops are worth allowing myself to process.

Is it a "loop" then, though? I definitely see using/developing Si as VERY beneficial to an INFP. It pretty much keeps you from being totally delusional; it grounds you. We can entirely live in a dream world of theories on how everything SHOULD be, but we have to learn from experience so we can function practically and actually find viable ways to create some semblance of our ideals in reality.

However, I think a loop implies being stuck in that mindset, where instead of learning valuable info from experience and then seeing how to apply that to our future, we get stuck in analyzing the past. That seems to turn negative for us; our flaws, the bad experiences, they get magnified and cripple us from moving forward. I think Si needs to aid Ne, not take over for it. To me, the loop is when Si has overstepped its bounds in our function lineup . It's like, whooaaa Si, Fi is the owner, Ne is the manager, and you're just the one who brings us the coffee, ookay?

 

[William K]

Is it a "loop" then, though? I definitely see using/developing Si as VERY beneficial to an INFP. It pretty much keeps you from being totally delusional; it grounds you. We can entirely live in a dream world of theories on how everything SHOULD be, but we have to learn from experience so we can function practically and actually find viable ways to create some semblance of our ideals in reality.

But what Si stores is not necessarily a very accurate picture of the past. It is already filtered through the experiencer.

However, I think a loop implies being stuck in that mindset, where instead of learning valuable info from experience and then seeing how to apply that to our future, we get stuck in analyzing the past. That seems to turn negative for us; our flaws, the bad experiences, they get magnified and cripple us from moving forward. I think Si needs to aid Ne, not take over for it. To me, the loop is when Si has overstepped its bounds in our function lineup . It's like, whooaaa Si, Fi is the owner, Ne is the manager, and you're just the one who brings us the coffee, ookay?

In my experience, the problem happens when Fi is too dominating and Ne and Si just provides what Fi expects, creating tunnel vision and a self-affirming loop. This can happen with both negative and positive experiences.

 

[OrangeAppled]

But what Si stores is not necessarily a very accurate picture of the past. It is already filtered through the experiencer.

That's why we remain idealists and are healthiest in that mind set than trying to be too practical . Nonetheless, our subjective view of past experience can still prove useful & teach us about what does not work for us, as long as we don't dwell on it to the point where the less accurate parts of it overcome our Ne insights.

In my experience, the problem happens when Fi is too dominating and Ne and Si just provides what Fi expects, creating tunnel vision and a self-affirming loop. This can happen with both negative and positive experiences.

So you don't see it as a Fi-Si loop so much as an imbalanced Fi? In either case, I think Ne is the missing key to a better mind set. As mentioned in the thread, this can mean bouncing ideas off of others, to help gain perspective of the external. The focus stays on the future & the positive possibilities it holds, instead of a heavily biased view of the past.

 

[Udog]

However, I think a loop implies being stuck in that mindset, where instead of learning valuable info from experience and then seeing how to apply that to our future, we get stuck in analyzing the past. That seems to turn negative for us; our flaws, the bad experiences, they get magnified and cripple us from moving forward. I think Si needs to aid Ne, not take over for it. To me, the loop is when Si has overstepped its bounds in our function lineup . It's like, whooaaa Si, Fi is the owner, Ne is the manager, and you're just the one who brings us the coffee, ookay?

I do believe it's a loop, because even with my positive revelations I was repeating thoughts and emotions in pretty much the same manner I described in the OP. When we get stuck, it becomes a trap.

In my more recent healthier loops, there wasn't any emotional pain to fuel constant repetition. Eventually, my thoughts started repeating and not treading any interesting new ground, and I grew bored with it. In my unhealthier loops, there's some sort of negative emotion that ensures I continue to loop beyond the point of productivity.

 

[William K]

So you don't see it as a Fi-Si loop so much as an imbalanced Fi? In either case, I think Ne is the missing key to a better mind set. As mentioned in the thread, this can mean bouncing ideas off of others, to help gain perspective of the external. The focus stays on the future & the positive possibilities it holds, instead of a heavily biased view of the past.

I'm reminded of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. Ne is the child that dares to speak out and point out the truth?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I do believe it's a loop, because even with my positive revelations I was repeating thoughts and emotions in pretty much the same manner I described in the OP. When we get stuck, it becomes a trap.

In my more recent healthier loops, there wasn't any emotional pain to fuel constant repetition. Eventually, my thoughts started repeating and not treading any interesting new ground, and I grew bored with it. In my unhealthier loops, there's some sort of negative emotion that ensures I continue to loop beyond the point of productivity.

I just don't think I've experienced a "healthy" loop. I really see Si working in a healthy way in me when it's deferring to Ne. Maybe I just don't have a handle on reviewing the past yet - it turns negative way to easily.

Of course, this is just a way I am choosing to labeling a mind set I have noted in myself; who is to say what functions I am really using in what way....

I'm reminded of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. Ne is the child that dares to speak out and point out the truth?

Intuition in general has always struck me as a BS detector, but I also think we have our own kind of BS that makes Ss roll their eyes

 

[Udog]

I just don't think I've experienced a "healthy" loop. I really see Si working in a healthy way in me when it's deferring to Ne. Maybe I just don't have a handle on reviewing the past yet - it turns negative way to easily.

Of course, this is just a way I am choosing to labeling a mind set I have noted in myself; whose to say what functions I am really using in what way....

Now that I can see it - the Fi-Si loop being used in a constructive manner - I would have to say it's been there all along. It's just so second nature that I don't really notice it until it's caused by some emotional pain that makes it overstay its welcome.

Of course, this is me. It helps if I view the pain of the past with a positive intention. Yeah, what happened may have sucked, but now I'm learning something that will make me a better person. When the pain is given purpose, it loses it's grip within me.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Interesting. I see Ti-Si as always negative and purely a defense mechanism. When I see I'm in it, I try to immediately look to see what's putting me there.

It's going to feel good sometimes because it's keeping you safe and away from stress. But then you're not overcoming anything.

 

[Udog]

Interesting. I see Ti-Si as always negative and purely a defense mechanism. When I see I'm in it, I try to immediately look to see what's putting me there.

It's going to feel good sometimes because it's keeping you safe and away from stress. But then you're not overcoming anything.

Yeah. I consider the loop to be destructive when it's used to protect ourselves from stress. I know it works differently in you, but I think we share the aspect where we retreat into our heads and repeat our thoughts.

I'm not sure what a constructive Ti-Si loop would be like. Let me ask you this:

Have you ever learned some new theory that changes how you model your world? Did you then enter into a loop to understand ALL aspects and repercussions of this theory? In the process, did you re-examine all your past observations, trying to integrate the new information in the process? Did you continue until the new theory makes sense with your past thoughts and experiences?

And once you finished that, did you break the loop yourself because you were hungry to learn more?

 

[JocktheMotie]

I'm not sure what a constructive Ti-Si loop would be like. Let me ask you this:

Have you ever learned some new theory that changes how you model your world? Did you then enter into a loop to understand ALL aspects and repercussions of this theory? In the process, did you re-examine all your past observations, trying to integrate the new information in the process? Did you continue until the new theory makes sense with your past thoughts and experiences?

And once you finished that, did you break the loop yourself because you were hungry to learn more?

See, I wouldn't even call that a loop. I just call that effectively incorporating the tertiary into the dominant perspective. In the above situation, the individual is applying his TiNe worldview to his perception of past experiences and "updating" it, which is inherently healthy and not a loop.

In such a situation, you're applying your new model [which you achieved through engaging your JiNe perspective] to your Si perspective to extract new ideas and thoughts, you're not going in for safety and to reconfirm/rationalize things by allowing Si to counteract Ne.

I really only call it a loop when you're stuck. So this is probably just a semantics thing

 

[Udog]

In such a situation, you're applying your new model [which you achieved through engaging your JiNe perspective] to your Si perspective to extract new ideas and thoughts, you're not going in for safety and to reconfirm/rationalize things by allowing Si to counteract Ne.

I really only call it a loop when you're stuck. So this is probably just a semantics thing

Yeah, I consider the looping and being stuck as two different things. But I think I see what you and OA mean as well. When the loop is catalyzed by Ne, it's not truly a "Fi-Si" or "Ti-Si" loop. Ne is the special guest star.

I'm just starting to see getting stuck in the Ji-Si loop to be a perversion of our natural process. As such, it's not about preventing it, but trying to remove the factors causing the perversion so things can go back to operating normally.

 

[Adasta]

Apologies for the up of ths rather old thread, but it's one of the most intriguing I've seen on this forum.

I'd like to posit the notion of "Faux-Ne". I hope I can get some insight.

"Faux-Ne" is Ne that, rather than "swooping in", in fact recycles the cast-offs of Si, dusting them off and presenting them as new. I'll been working on an an example that involves romance, since we are all INFPs here!

You date someone and have a good time with them but it fizzles out. Nothing springs to mind about why; you just consider it a sort of "summer fling" or something and you move on. You didn't think the girl/guy was that into you anyway. The scenario appears pleasantly complete: you had feelings, you experienced them, you put them aside for new ones, and that phase of your life is now complete. However, as time moves on, you receive some new information that, perhaps, that relationship could've been more than a summer fling.

Now, here's where I'm having trouble. The new information would seem to come in and open up a new possibility (Ne) allowing you to think of new ways in which your life could unfold. However, since it's connected to a past event, you are still at liberty to indulge in a Fi-Si loop (analysing the first relationship) and to relive the emotions you felt the first time around. Ne here is operating as "faux-Ne", since it's not really opening a completely new possibility to you, but rather the continuation of a possibility not seized.

Where do we stand with this? Assuming my example is coherent, it's plausible to say that Ne is rescuing you from your Fi-Si loop by suggesting that things might actually happen in the present which did not happen in the past. Is this a "legitimate" use of Ne?

 

[Silveresque]

Cool thread! I think I experience Fi-Ti-Si loops.

It starts with Fi trying to figure out and assess my feelings/values, then Ti comes along and points out inconsistencies and tells me when I'm being illogical, but if I have too much focus on Si, then I end up introspecting constantly and never get past that Fi-Ti evaluation exchange. It keeps my dominant function, along with Fi, totally occupied with things that don't really matter instead of allowing them to be used in more productive ways.

It works like this:

Fi - "How do I feel?" (My feelings are valid, even if they don't make sense)
Ti - "Why do I feel this way? How should I feel?" (How I feel is illogical)
Si - "What did I do that caused me to feel this way?" (I have to examine the cause in order to fix it)

Fi moves to Ti when I want to understand and intellectualize my feelings. Ti moves to Si when its logic fails to change my feelings, and Si moves back to Fi again when reliving the past brings up painful emotions, thus completing the loop.

 

[Redbone]

Where do we stand with this? Assuming my example is coherent, it's plausible to say that Ne is rescuing you from your Fi-Si loop by suggesting that things might actually happen in the present which did not happen in the past. Is this a "legitimate" use of Ne?

Yes! I just got into this with an INFP friend. The past was in focus and the present was fuzzy. It was causing problems. I finally had to say, "Forget what you think you know! Open your eyes to what is going on in front of you NOW!"

The really cool thing is that (unlike me) he immediately recognized it and took action. Started taking in and trusting his Ne. The transformation (and the swiftness of it) was amazing to see.

It's similar for INTPs. I find that I need to put myself in situations that deliberately stimulate my use of Ne by problem solving. Looking inward or looping can be good in times of extremis but it's not a healthy way to deal with everyday life. The trick is finding ways to extrovert yourself so that the loop is broken.

 

[Adasta]

Yes! I just got into this with an INFP friend. The past was in focus and the present was fuzzy. It was causing problems. I finally had to say, "Forget what you think you know! Open your eyes to what is going on in front of you NOW!"

My point was more that the occurrence in the past (the ex-boy/girlfriend) could return in the present and be a "proper" partner. Do you think that is actually Ne at work? Do you think Ne here is genuinely exploring new possibilities, or is it some sort of faux-Ne which is merely Si in Ne clothing?

 

[Redbone]

Adasta, I don't believe so. I don't think that would be a true loop, which occur in moments of stress (I could be wrong). I think what you are describing is still Ne.

 

[Adasta]

[MENTION=4722]Udog[/MENTION]

Do you think it is necessary to first go to Te before Ne, or is it that this is just typically what happens?

When experiencing a loop, I tend to ask Te-doms and Te-auxs their views on my situation. Their responses are uniform: things will change with time. This is, of course, a difficult thing to hear. As an INFP, we don't want to have to put up with time, because that means having to feel negative emotions for an unspecified period of our lives. We really need to face the fact that we are going to ave to expend energy to move our lives along. Generally, we want to float by undisturbed.

However, this sort of Te-led focus can be beneficial since it offers structure to our own indeterminate self-questioning. INFPs tend to think "it will be like this forever" and implicitly accept the negative situation as everlasting (because that's how it feels). Forcing ourselves to use Te gives us the groundwork that will allow us to consider that perhaps things might change in the future. The hardest question to answer when in a Fi-Si loop is "What do you really want?" This is because the answer is almost always "the past to be the present". Now, we can either give in to this and keep looping, or analyse what aspects of the past worked well, and which didn't. The next step is to (re)create the positive aspects in the present.

For example, if you are stuck in a boring town, you might feel unappreciated or that your talents are wasted. You could loop over times spent in other places that made you feel good, appreciated, alive, etc. Now, Te could help break the loop by arranging and presenting tangible alternatives to your situation, e.g. moving to a new town. Te could help to arrange the logistics and aid in research; it will show you the how while Fi shows you the why. Once one indulges in this, one could become convinced and decide this is actually a positive move. Then Ne could come in, allowing one to imagine the new possibilities in the new town, which concurrently offers a clean break from the past.

The greatest difficulty is that, as previously mentioned, breaking an introverted loops requires massive amounts of energy expenditure. Therefore, I think it is worthwhile setting realistic, non-strenuous goals. It might be worthwhile to say "I will use Te to explore one avenue, and reevaluate things in 6 weeks." It is essential that one commit oneself, though. Doing other things like "getting out there" is also vital, if only as temporary distraction.

 

[Udog]

[MENTION=11466]Adasta[/MENTION],

Nah, I don't see why it's required to go through Te first. There are plenty of times where it's some new idea (I think I called it Deus-Ex-Ne) that begins the process of breaking the loop. Of course, I consider the brainstorming in your example above to largely be the work of Ne, where the process of making a step-by-step plan that puts the ideas into reality to be more Te.

The perk Te has is that it's hard to be very Fi-driven when you are also very Te-driven. It's like flipping a light-switch. I can see it as being one way to brute force your way out of a loop.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Wow! I just found this thread and I love it. Thanks @Udog for posting!!!! I also found @OrangeAppled 's post very helpful as well.

My BFF is an INFP and I have observed her getting stuck in Fi-Si loops. (Just like I get stuck in Ne-Te loops. So no glass houses here.)

I was particularly moved by what Udog wrote here:

...the INFP Fi-Si loop can be a healthy thing...The Fi-Si loop is quite possibly the foundation for one of the INFP's most important strengths. Learning how to wield it is critical, because it's not about stopping the Fi-Si loop, but choosing what loops are worth allowing myself to process.

I think, like any gift, there is a bit of blessing/curse thing going on. In other words, the Fi-Si loop is the heart of an INFP's strengths... and simultaneously the source of an INFP's weaknesses. An unhealthy Fi-Si loop can lead an INFP into hanging onto their idealized version of reality even when the facts of the situation disagree.

I think it's important to take a moment to recap an INFP's function order before making my next point: Fi > Ne > Si > Te. Here's a summary of each function from Wikipedia:

1. Introverted feeling (Fi) - Fi filters information based on interpretations of worth, forming judgments according to criteria that are often intangible. Fi constantly balances an internal set of values such as harmony and authenticity. Attuned to subtle distinctions, Fi innately senses what is true and what is false in a situation. With Fi as their dominant function, INFPs live primarily in a rich inner world of emotion.
2. Extraverted intuition (Ne) - Ne finds and interprets hidden meanings, using “what if” questions to explore alternatives, allowing multiple possibilities to coexist. This imaginative play weaves together insights and experiences from various sources to form a new whole, which can then become a catalyst to action. INFPs engage the outside world primarily with intuition. They are adept at seeing the big picture, sensing patterns and the flow of existence from the past toward the future.
3. Introverted sensing (Si) - Si collects data in the present moment and compares it with past experiences, a process that sometimes evokes the feelings associated with memory, as if the subject were reliving it. Seeking to protect what is familiar, Si draws upon history to form goals and expectations about what will happen in the future. This function gives INFPs a natural inclination toward "other-worldliness" and makes them more easily distracted.
4. Extraverted thinking (Te) - Te organizes and schedules ideas and the environment to ensure the efficient, productive pursuit of objectives. Te seeks logical explanations for actions, events, and conclusions, looking for faulty reasoning and lapses in sequence. This function helps INFPs focus on external details, but being the inferior function, requires the expenditure of greater energy and is not as reliable.

A lot of posts in this thread have talked about how breaking the Fi-Si loop requires Ne. But I'm going to proffer that a more expedient way to stop an unhealthy Fi-Si loop is to simply use Te to run a "reality check on it" - not to ditch it all together. Udog was right I think in that the Fi-Si loop is the source of an INFP's strength. A healthy Fi-Si loop allows an INFP to vibrate with strength and assuredness as they live by their strong Fi values in a manner they think is correct (Si).

It seems to me that the trick for an INFP is to choose very, very carefully which Fi-Si loops she/he is going to allow her/himself to engage. Does the ideal that the INFP rumuninates upon in her Fi-Si loop match the facts? And, how does an INFP make such a decision? I'm going to argue that Te - not Ne - is the most important INFP mental function in such a scenario. In other words, the INFP should use her Te to decide if the facts match up with the "ideal" the INFP is ruminating upon. If yes, then Fi-Si loop away. If they don't match up, then discard it and reframe the ideal according to the facts of the situation at hand. This logical analysis of the facts and subsequent culling of the INFP's vision of the situation speaks to the very heart of Te's strengths.

When my INFP BFF uses her Te, she is dazzling. She is able to wield her Fi-Si loops to their maximum power because she takes an almost Machiavellian approach as to which Fi-Si loops she is going to process and which she is going to reframe and reprocess in light of the facts. In such situations, my INFP becomes the person I most admire. That I'm in awe of. That whips my sorry ENFP behind into cognitive function shape.

I hope this makes sense. I'd appreciate feedback from INFPs as to whether or not what I've said here rings true.