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  1. #21
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by souffle View Post
    Thats interesting. I have found that the Fi-Si loop continues to bug me despite having looked at it in a new light and made a definite and final judgement about it - I simply go back to before I made that decision and remember the thoughts and feelings before that, and then when I've had my fun reminiscing, remind myself of the decision I made. Which means going through the whole reasoning process all over again to convince myself that my final decision was right.

    Does this mean I haven't truly resolved my problem? Or is this a bit different to the Fi-Si loop you had in mind - does yours only apply to feelings that have never been resolved in any way?
    I think those aftershocks are par for the course, and come after you've resolved the issue. I know I'll be well over a thing and still have something happen that brings those memories and emotions to the front of my mind. It can be really disorienting, but that's not quite the same thing.

    What makes it different? The time and mental energy I spend on it. It's like revisiting an unpleasant area compared to being trapped in it.

  2. #22
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    As promised earlier, here's an example. I had a real hard time sorting this post out, so I hope it makes some modicum of sense.

    Despite the shame I feel for falling for the cliche, I did that thing where I developed feelings for a friend. A friend I've known for a long time. After she initially said no though, things between us seemed to gain momentum and chemistry, instead of losing it. Until it sort of peaked, and then... she disappeared. (Yeah, this is a long story made short). Then 3 months later, on Christmas Day, she told me she found someone.

    Anyway, it was pretty devastating, and her waiting until Christmas Day to tell me (she had other opportunities) seemed to add insult to injury. And to top it off, I could only grasp at straws as to what happened. I hadn't felt that way in almost 10 years.

    So I kept on replaying the events in my head, over and over again, to see if I could gleam new insight. I'd use my imagination to picture how things could have ended differently. Perhaps if I said this instead of that, things would have gone better. Who knows? I was killing myself with 'what ifs'.

    How did I break it? I found a couple of really cool, self-aware INFJs that I could talk to. They gave me some wonderful insight to how she (an INFJ) may have viewed things. With their help, I started to understand just how differently she thought compared to me. I realized that she really had no way of reading my mind when it came to certain things, and because of it, didn't really know who I was. Te information gathering provided insight!

    I essentially learned that I was rejected because of who I pretended to be. The real me? Perhaps he would have been rejected, too. However, I'll never really know, and I resolved never to make that mistake again.

    With that bit of understanding, a few answers, and a lesson I could take away from this, I was finally able to move on. The Fi-Si loop was no longer as tempting as moving forward and learning how to apply the new lessons.

    That's when I was able to play with Ne. With this new information, I could use Ne to serve Fi (what lessons can I learn? How can I prevent this from happening again?) instead of using Ne to falsely serve Si.

  3. #23
    Senior Member souffle's Avatar
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    Ah. The example has helped me understand a bit better. Now I'm starting to see the difference.

  4. #24
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Yeah, I suspect with some loops the best way to break them is to ignore the natural INFP instinct and seek out advice from people you trust and respect.

  5. #25
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    Thanks for all of your posts, and to Udog for starting the thread. I'm learning a lot from it. I never thought about the loop, but now I realize I've done this before (and it's kept me occupied for a long time--in one instance for years as I worked closely with someone I was attracted to) I spent so much time reliving the 'what ifs' and 'what's wrong with me' about this confusing mixed signal relationship only to finally break out of it through Ne and Ti (I now realize). There's comfort in that loop, as others have said, but little to no movement. Friends have also helped me break the cycle.

  6. #26
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Yeah, I suspect with some loops the best way to break them is to ignore the natural INFP instinct and seek out advice from people you trust and respect.
    Yeah, I think so as well. It can be hard finding those people, but they can make a world of difference. It's also important that we LISTEN to what they say, and don't automatically discount it because it hurts our feelings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren View Post
    Thanks for all of your posts, and to Udog for starting the thread. I'm learning a lot from it. I never thought about the loop, but now I realize I've done this before (and it's kept me occupied for a long time--in one instance for years as I worked closely with someone I was attracted to) I spent so much time reliving the 'what ifs' and 'what's wrong with me' about this confusing mixed signal relationship only to finally break out of it through Ne and Ti (I now realize). There's comfort in that loop, as others have said, but little to no movement. Friends have also helped me break the cycle.
    That sounds like a real rough situation to be in - I'm glad you were able to break away from it. Thank you for sharing that story.

    Yeah, the "no movement" thing is key. Si, for all of it's strengths, doesn't provide alot of movement.

    That's another way out of the loop - movement. When I'm in the Fi-Si loop, I become highly routinized. The same environment leads to the same actions, which leads to the same thoughts. Each day is a repeat of the last, with only slight variance.

    So break the cycle of activity! Inject new activities and new environments. It's disorienting at first, but those also chip away at the loop, as they feed the extroverted functions and gives your introverted functions new information to process.

    One thing I did was to start walking and exercising a few months ago when I was in the midst of a different loop. (This loop I'm not fully over yet - it's the BIG loop of my life, and it's a stubborn SOB. I've been talking alot about it in my blog.) My almost daily one hour walks made a HUGE difference. Not immediately, though. My first few walks consisted largely of my old thoughts, but eventually, I grew bored of it. Something about the fresh air, combined with the fact that I'd be walking for an HOUR, made me get tired and frustrated with revisiting the old thoughts. So I started looking forward instead of backward, and it made a huge difference.

  7. #27
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    this thread sounds like an infp greatest hits cd.

    i think that blackcat bringing up the tertiary temptation is right on the money. but it's differently experienced and expressed for all types.

    isfps who go into Fi Ni mode get fucked up in the head. it's this weird sort of overdrive/overclocking. huge amounts of distortion. SCHISM, etc. basically your inner and outer pressure equilibrium starts oscillating wildly and you go into anaerobic mode (which is terribly inefficient). Ni starts FINDING and SEARCHING for all potential connections, patterns, ideas that will justify the Fi judment and create further fixation. it avoids the physical presence and the assertion of Se and withdraws completely, becomes paranoid and fearful and untrusting, and begins conspiracy theorizing in all forms at all objects/categories of existence (think elliott smith, layne staley).

    infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).

    tertiary trap is a basic schismatic process that is quite horrible. for 5w4 and 4w5, the bottom point of the enneagram, this process is most likely to be an ongoing concern. the 4 and 5 positively reinforce extreme introversion/withdrawal and Fi-Si or Ni-Ti. no one is there to see them completely crumble. the nts have it bad too with Ni-Fi or Ti-Si, but they just turn into arrogant pricks and brats, whereas we are more consistently in-tune with our alienation (infp) or desolation (infj). the nts are more likely to develop strange epilepsies or go all Pi on you and stick a drill thru their temples.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    I think it's alot harder with personal situations, because then it becomes an issue of recalling Te instead of Fi when I am emotionally invested and in a stressed state. THAT's when it takes energy to drop Fi to do some Ne-Te exploration, at a time when I don't have alot of energy to spare.
    I hit this logically and run in circles and its like chasing my tail. It happens for me when trying to understand emotions that I caused in others. Without that input and openness I get trapped in an endless loop trying to figure out what the hell I did wrong to cause that emotion. Where I endlessly loop through what I did and why it would have caused that reaction.

    I think this is a Ti-Ni loop in regards to others feelings.

    For Fi-Si would you say this is a loop in regards to someone elses logic that doesnt feel right? You go in circles about how certain parts feel and then just get stuck in that loop?
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #29
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    i'm not sure there is any trap other than our need for fulfillment. there is no fi-si or ti-ni trap or tertiary shadow bullshit. that is pretty much unsubstantial. for me i get hooked on a notion that something is right for me and i spin my wheels trying to determine how to get there, knowing the whole time it's all in my imagination. i have perfect control of where i'm headed in this world of mine and i Choose where i go, not some function that Leads me there. i know full well what is good for me and yet i still persist in ways that are not, that is not a cognitive function in command, it's me.

  10. #30
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Great post Udog; feels very accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    infps who go into Fi Si can't get out of the past. they're trapped in the past, the world is invisible and they cannot merge and get new information. they are an alien creature inhabiting a future world that never comes (makes me think of he nick drake documentary "a stranger among us"). their values that help them understand how the world as a whole and how themselves as a whole fit together, get fucked up/corrupted and there's no way to bring them together again (so it seems). with Si the judgments of Fi just get rehearsed and practiced and recited over and over again with no ability to unstick them, unsettle them, create a bit more play or potential movement or room to breathe. the ability to change perspectives goes away bc Si combs out all possibilities, instead deciding to focus on the attributes that reinforce the feeling rather than those that show its limitations and incompletenesses. (think jack kerouac).
    There is a hidden harm in this, I feel, in the connections with people that are lost in the Fi/Si loop. Since the INFP is stuck in the past while any people they have surrounded themselves with have already moved into the future, their thinking/feeling is literally "out of time," like that REM song "Losing My Religion." They will have lost not only understanding, but the ability to understand. Because when someone speaks, the INFP is in 2003 while the speaker is in 2008. The INFP might be hearing the speaker talk about a certain girlfriend from the past, when the speaker is actually talking about their current girlfriend, for example. This is why many type descriptions mention idealists living in the future/past, which is really a method of time travel. (Like in "Lost" where only the mind, and not the physical body, travels through time.) This situation makes symbolic and metaphoric communication difficult, which further isolates the INFP from the real world that could provide a solution to the loop.

    Also, the INFP in a Fi/Si loop will really be thrown through a loop while Ne is getting "up to speed." In this role, at first it seems to accelerate the loop, because it searches for possibilities and at this point the INFP is searching for possibilities that reinforce the loop, not break it. I think that some other function has to step in to join with Ne in order to break the loop therefore, but I'm not sure what that function would be. This is just a theory I have, but it seems to be how it works or me as I first attempt to break the Fi/Si loop and my thoughts and feelings expand the loop trying to push beyond it.

    I think Portishead's "Magic Doors" artistically describes the Fi/Si loop:

    I can't deny what I've become
    I'm just emotionally undone
    I can't deny I can't be someone else
    When I have tried to find the words
    To describe this sense absurd
    Try to resist my thoughts but I can't lie

    I'm losing myself
    My desire I can't hide
    No reason am I for

    I can't divide or hide from me
    I don't know who I'm meant to be
    I guess it's just the person that I am
    Often I've dreamt that I'd awake
    Enjoy gift of my mistake
    But yet again, I'm wrong and I confess

    I'm losing myself
    My desire I can't hide
    No reason am I for

    I'm losing myself
    My desire I can't hide
    No reason am I for
    Their song "The Rip" also touches on a very similar theme.
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

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