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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Actually, what you said about closure has given me a bit of an epiphany...

    Would it be fair to say that somebody who needs and seeks closure might be tempted to 'find' or 'see' it when it's not necessarily there, even when it's a kind of closure they don't really want?

    .
    I have limited time, so I'll re-read the OP later to give you a better response. However, I wanted to say "YES!" to this question.

    If a decision is not made, I feel as though I HAVE to make some sort of decision or I'll go insane. (Well, maybe not insane, but I do feel as though the world is crashing down on me a bit until I make one) I am a ball of nerves until I make the decision - regardless of what the decision may be. I've been known to make "snap decisions", sometimes wrong ones and sometimes right ones, simply to satisfy my need for closure. I've also found myself in situations that I didn't intend to be in because of my rush to gain closure.

    Also, I like to be in control of the decision. If I feel as though I'm going to lose control with the decision, then I may make a snap decision to put the ball back in my court. It's not a great quality.

  2. #72
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    But... but... but ENTP's can't just accept stuff like this. It's part of our nature to belieeeeve that things can be changed, they can be improved - misunderstandings can be cleared up, problems can be solved - any two things no matter how different and opposing can be reconciled - anything is possible! If I just gave up and started accepting that things suck and there's nothing I can do about it, I'd whither and die!!!
    please don't speak for me or all ENTPs. especially when i've been in your situation with people like that, and instead of responding and feeling as you have, i approached it with a very sincere attitude of, "sweet! a vacation." and enjoyed the break. i say 'break' because people like that usually return whether i want them to or not. if they don't then i think, "sweet! no more of that shit." family or not, doesn't matter.

    i wholeheartedly expect people to act like people, and don't bother with trying to change their mindsets when it's clear they're that attached to them. on the contrary, i feel validated when i make the decision not to care what they think, since i know the truth, and move on in complete peace.
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  3. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    please don't speak for me or all ENTPs. especially when i've been in your situation with people like that, and instead of responding and feeling as you have, i approached it with a very sincere attitude of, "sweet! a vacation." and enjoyed the break. i say 'break' because people like that usually return whether i want them to or not. if they don't then i think, "sweet! no more of that shit." family or not, doesn't matter.

    i wholeheartedly expect people to act like people, and don't bother with trying to change their mindsets when it's clear they're that attached to them. on the contrary, i feel validated when i make the decision not to care what they think, since i know the truth, and move on in complete peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute
    To clarify... they offered to babysit in an emergency once when I barely knew them, and then when I came back, offered to do it on a regular basis. They said they enjoyed it and had fun playing with the kids, and didn't say any more. I said thanks, it was nice of them, and appreciated because it made life easier for me. On no account did I ever suggest to them that it was anything but a sorta 'marriage of convenience' to me - I never even pretended to be 'in love'... I just think 'culpable' is quite a strong word... it suggests I've done something wrong... maybe something a bit naive and stupid, in taking people at their word and expecting them to do the same... but not wrong. I don't think I've committed a fault there.
    And here is the immense difference between two ENTPs. One of them obviously knows about his or her thinking/feeling disconnect, but uses emotions and feelings as a fact to be considered when making decisions in social situations but the other seems to feel the need to 'triumph' over or 'reason' with the feeling.

    Substitute, you cannot reason with feelings. All you can do is look at them as facts and put them into that talented computer of a brain to think of contingencies and strategies in dealing with certain people. I'm slightly appalled that you cannot see your own selfishness. By allowing them to continue giving you a 'break' you have been consenting to an arrangement. Whether you perceive that arrangement as purely rational or not, you would improve your life by acknowledging that others will not or cannot perceive the same value on the rationality of the relationship.

    I agree with so many posters, they are your children. However, the biggest thing I agree with is that there is far more going on here than even 8 pages of forum posting has to offer. I "feel" for you because I've been painted as cold and callous for telling things like they are or should be; but I also get the sense that you arrogantly undervalue the emotions of others - that's just as dangerous as undervaluing the thought process, actually more, because emotions are for more fluid, erratic, and subjective.

    I hope things work out though, because if your children are NFs, they can sense tension and conflict even if you've been doing a great job at keeping them far from it.

  4. #74
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    please don't speak for me or all ENTPs. especially when i've been in your situation with people like that, and instead of responding and feeling as you have, i approached it with a very sincere attitude of, "sweet! a vacation." and enjoyed the break. ...
    Under normal circumstances I'd feel the same way when it comes to people, but in some cases there's more at stake and you have to make the effort, pointless and annoying though it may feel. Plus, though my initial instinct is just like you - 'Fuck them, meh' - I have religious beliefs that have me making an ass of myself because I felt guilty and ashamed of just being willing to fuck 'em and leave them flailing and hurting because of a misunderstanding, I feel compelled to try and rectify the situation.

    But the attitude I described, I think it's fair to say that is one that's native to most ENTP's, even if it's normally not turned towards the world of people and relations, but rather, objects and experiments etc.

    End Eternue - I don't think 'selfish' is very fair - as I said earlier, perhaps a bit dumb and naive of me, true, but as I said, the arrangement was something they benefited out of more than me, and being a dumbass when it comes to predicting or knowing or understanding these kinds of feelings (since they're the sort of thing that would never even cross my mind, it's not always instinctive for me to think that for others, not only would they cross their minds, they'd run free and ramble all over them and generally rule them!). I made a mistake, but I erred on the side of leniency I think, not selfishness.

    My motives, however misguided, were well-intentioned, so I kinda resent this blackening of my intentions - it's in fact exactly what I was talking about, that because I tried to do some good, but not out of empathy, that it therefore wasn't good, and was selfish/mean/whatever. It's what I find so frustrating about dealing with Fe types - that if I make a mistake because of faulty reasoning, or because of using reasoning where it wasn't able to help, I get 'value judged' as a person... when really all that's been at fault is my reasoning, which I'm quite prepared to admit. It doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

    I mean, what would you suggest? That I never have any arrangement with anyone ever again, in case they invest their entire emotional world in it or go psycho on me if I try to end it? As I said, I didn't understand or have the chance to understand just how much they invested in the arrangement until it was way too late to curb it. Especially when they made the offer when I couldn't possibly have imagined how much it meant to them, considering I'd only known them like, two weeks at the time. It would never naturally occur to me that people who've only known someone for such a short time, and babysat their kids once, would have such things in mind when they make a seemingly innocent offer to babysit for me.
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  5. #75
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Default Hindsight is 20/20

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I mean, what would you suggest? That I never have any arrangement with anyone ever again, in case they invest their entire emotional world in it or go psycho on me if I try to end it? As I said, I didn't understand or have the chance to understand just how much they invested in the arrangement until it was way too late to curb it. Especially when they made the offer when I couldn't possibly have imagined how much it meant to them, considering I'd only known them like, two weeks at the time. It would never naturally occur to me that people who've only known someone for such a short time, and babysat their kids once, would have such things in mind when they make a seemingly innocent offer to babysit for me.
    I think this speaks to the underdeveloped 'F' you were speaking of earlier (or someone spoke of it, I've lost track). At least now you know! At least specifically regarding people forming attachments to your children you'll hopefully be better prepared and anticipate potential problems.

    In the bigger picture, knowing you need to be more 'F' (yes, very crudely put, but you get the picture) and look out for emotional undercurrents and cues in people's actions is probably more frustrating. There is a difference between consciously making the decision not to value the emotional responses you see in people as opposed to not being able to recognize said emotional cues and undercurrents behind people's actions.

    Hmm...My only advice? I think some other helpful poster has put up links about developing inferior functions.

    And I do hear the ring of truth in others' comments that people can smell bs and especially can tell when you don't like them personally or have another motive that you don't speak of. There is a fine line between couching the truth in a more pleasant vehicle and lying through omission. I've been on both sides of your situation i.e. giving and receiving 'bad news' and both been pissed off and gotten pissed off responses i.e "Just tell me you don't like me." And BS is basically what people will call your delivery if they don't like it. Similar to how a failed pick-up attempt will be called 'creepy' but the exact same pick-up attempt if successful is considered cute or suave. It wasn't what you said or how you said it that is bs per sae, it's all about the receiving parties perception.

    Kudos to you for trying to anticipate their reactions and go out of your way to smooth the delivery as much as possible.

    And again, the only practical advice I would have is check out that inferior functions link and try even harder to put yourself in other's shoes? So you can anticipate better how you think they will respond.

    I also think you would not have this problem with more 'P' or otherwise socially easygoing people. I'm pretty used to people drifting into and out of my life and me theirs and am almost neurotically cued into the emotional/hidden currents of a relationship. I either take the hint or just as likely ASSUME the other person wants to minimize contact for a while (busy, stress, perhaps they dislike me oh no!!) and I also give non-verbal action cues to people that I need to minimize contact with them.

    I understand in your case that wasn't feasible because the situation was set up around visiting your children so a regularly scheduled thing which necessitates more direct measures. But, just an observation.

  6. #76
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    Default Couldn't let this one pass --

    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick
    Adapting your communcation for others is a form of manipulation.

    No, I don't yell when people are sleeping in a room. Because I wouldn't want people to yell when I'm sleeping. It's basically respecting other people's right to sleep in peace.
    Wow, I completely disagree with your assessment of adapting as manipulation. I believe part of the definition of communication includes not just EXPRESSION but RECEPTION. And if you are communicating in a way that the other person does not understand or misinterprets, you are either NOT communicating or you communicating very badly.

    You want people to understand you, yes? And beyond that, be as receptive as possible to what you are saying? Then you have to adapt.

    Perhaps we're talking semantics but when you agree that you would adapt situationally, that includes to people. And when you say you would adapt specifically because you "wouldn't want someone else to do X to you" -- that can also be applied to people.

    That's not manipulation, that's consideration which I'm guessing even though you say adaptation = manipulation you still practice on a daily basis.

    Human interaction requires a great deal of adaptation and modification and communication is the foundation of human interaction. No matter how tough and independent you are or think you are, you are still changed everyday by the minutiae of life and other people and history. And in turn you change your environment and the people around you.

  7. #77
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    You were not able to find a rapport with your autist child.
    This couple did accomplish the feat.
    You were jealous of them.
    You told them to go to hell.

    Now you whine and ask our pity.
    It is not forthcoming.

  8. #78
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Odd? Most of the time my criticism comes from SJs who point out that I don't conform and am quite contrary. I simply agree

    My ENFJ mate though does keep pointing out where I'm being perhaps less than considerate and I've always thought of it as interesting input (though mainly it's in the form of "They would? Why on earth would they feel that? I was only being objective!" or some such.

    My sister is also an ENFJ and I always get the feeling of a pat on the head more than a crucifixion as evil incarnate but there again my father is an NT so she wouldn't have gotten very far.

    Subs, do you have the effect of rubbing people up the wrong way? Are you often the centre of controversy and argument? If so then perhaps it is that which vilifies you and not your T. Of course it is the result of having a T preference but just because you prefer to walk around naked does not excuse you from the need to get used to clothes for other peoples sensibilities. One persons freedom shouldn't really restrain ten people's freedoms.

    I only go down this line of thinking because the ENTP I know can rub someone the wrong way on contact. He's stuck in sarcasm mode and can often fail to impress his heartfelt opinion because he sounds like he's just being flippant. Perhaps your the same and perhaps not. I'm just shooting in the dark here hoping that one round at least will hit something useful.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #79
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Good Nice Person = Feeler??
    Fixed.

    Nice and good are not the same thing. Good is better than nice, but nice is more pleasant. For everybody.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #80
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In short, all the FJ's I know seem to demonstrate an attitude that presumes the only true good in the world is the result of pure empathy, and that without empathy, no good is possible. Therefore, it seems to be their view, most people with a strong Thinking preference are at best, evil people who might be able to 'resist' evil and appear good, by imitating Feeler behaviour.

    And I'm sick of being judged all the fucking time like this. So, Feelers, your advice?
    This could open up an entire discussion about the nature of empathy. A great deal of empathy based on emotion is projection of personal feeling and has nothing to do with the actual feelings or needs of the object of said empathy. Real empathy requires a great deal of objectivity. It creates a kind of paradox: to be able to identify with another person's world view without confusing it with your own. Because of the nature of empathy, I have found that people with stronger drives for reason and objectivity often have more accurate conclusions about the mindset of others when these happen to be different or even alien from their own.

    Projection is the cause of much harm in this world; that is assigning thoughts, feelings, and motivations to others that represent our own mindset or the experiences that impacted us most deeply. It is the process that leads people to make premature judgments about others which are typically false. Projection is the justification for all types of cruelty. What I am saying is that the process many "Feelers" assume is the answer for the world, has also created much of the problems.

    As an FJ, I do not think "empathy", as a vague and often misconstrued term, is the hope of the world. If I had to pick a word to represent my thinking and hopes it would be balance.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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