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  1. #41
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    Ah! Fair enough. would it be more accurate to say INs would be more apt to introspection? (by the second definition.)
    Uhh, no!!!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #42
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hey, you two, quit derailing my thread! You been hanging round with NP's too much or something?
    sorry Guess it's over now anyway, I got all my questions answered. XD
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

    Member of the Maverick's Biker Club - Now crashing through walls instead of just..walking into them.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes and I said that ultimately, they're his children and he has the right to limit the amount of time he spends with the couple. The couple don't have dibs on his kids. But you forget he also allowed the couple to babysit the children when he needed some space. He's not completely inculpable. Maybe the terms of visitation with the children should have been clearly spelled out at the beginning of the situation so this kind of thing would have been minimized. I don't know what caused the rift in the relationship between Substitute. This could be just the tip of the iceberg. I can't say conclusively who's disrespecting who. All I know is that Sub has a right to restrict visitation to his kids and the couple can scream and pout as much as they want, but it's his decision. But they're also responding to a perceived slight on Sub's behalf, be it valid or invalid.
    Even considering what they did, he never signed a contract stating he would have affinities with them forever. However, what they are doing is diffamy to get revenge at him for their hurt feelings. Basically their message is "Anyone who rejects us is going to be talked of as a mean person for doing so!".

    He was a great guy for them and... all of a sudden because he doesn't want them he is a cold heartless bastard? Huh? I say he deserves double praise for being honest AND brave.

    O rly? Do you seriously not change your communications style depending on who you're around? Do you talk to a two-year old the same way as a 12 YO and a 32 YO? Do you yell when people are sleeping in a room? Do you get up and start pontificating about your favorite sports team when you're supposed to be giving a eulogy at a funeral? I'm thinking you answered yes to at least some of these. Is changing depending on your environment always a matter of manipulation? Clearly, it's not. Changing with the intent to maliciously deceive is manipulation with the intent to control, not merely adapting to different circumstances.
    Let's not mix communication and social norms.

    Ah, for the kids that's exactly my point. Chaning your style for others is patronizing and babysitting them. That's fine for children. But a mature adult should be capable of accepting another adult's opinion.

    Sleeping in a room? No, I don't yell when people are sleeping in a room. Because I wouldn't want people to yell when I'm sleeping. It's basically respecting other people's right to sleep in peace.

    Funeral? The honest thing is not to go to the funeral if you're more interested in your sports team.

    If anyone thinks they're supposed to get along with everyone, then they're living in a dream world. There are certain people that you simply won't be able to tolerate. But I do believe you should make the effort to get along with people. If the people you notice you're not able to get along with tend to have the same personality traits, then you've got some prototypical example of a person like this that you didn't get along with in the past and are projecting it out to everyone who sort of resembles this person personality wise. Yes, the problem is you and not them.
    No, the problem is them for you, and you for them. The problem is that you're not meant to get along.

    I don't compromise my opinions to get along with people. I still get along with 90% of them.

  4. #44
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    But you forget he also allowed the couple to babysit the children when he needed some space. He's not completely inculpable. Maybe the terms of visitation with the children should have been clearly spelled out at the beginning of the situation so this kind of thing would have been minimized.
    To clarify... they offered to babysit in an emergency once when I barely knew them, and then when I came back, offered to do it on a regular basis. They said they enjoyed it and had fun playing with the kids, and didn't say any more. I said thanks, it was nice of them, and appreciated because it made life easier for me. On no account did I ever suggest to them that it was anything but a sorta 'marriage of convenience' to me - I never even pretended to be 'in love'... I just think 'culpable' is quite a strong word... it suggests I've done something wrong... maybe something a bit naive and stupid, in taking people at their word and expecting them to do the same... but not wrong. I don't think I've committed a fault there.

    When they told me much later, that they had been trying for kids and couldn't have any, and that it was one reason why they liked babysitting, again, I just figured, bonus, now I don't have to feel guilty about dumping the kids on them when I go out - they actually like it. Even so I kept checking and I did also repay them in material terms for the favour as well.

    Changing with the intent to maliciously deceive is manipulation with the intent to control, not merely adapting to different circumstances.
    One could say that any attempt to deceive is potentially malicious, even if not in intent, then certainly in effect, especially long-term effect.

    But I do believe you should make the effort to get along with people.
    So do I, but one has to draw the line somewhere. If I've made as much effort as I and those who know me consider is reasonable - and then gone beyond that as I usually do - and things still aren't working out, there comes a time when you have to call it quits.

    If the people you notice you're not able to get along with tend to have the same personality traits, then you've got some prototypical example of a person like this that you didn't get along with in the past and are projecting it out to everyone who sort of resembles this person personality wise. Yes, the problem is you and not them.
    Hm, that's one possible conclusion... but not the first one I'd have thought of. I'd have probably said more like "...then you've probably got some personality trait that clashes with another personality trait that all of those people have in common".

    I still can't help sensing a tone of judgement in what you say there, proteanmix... I mean, it's this sorta assertion that if you don't get along with someone, there has to be something wrong with you if you just can't make it work... I'm not trying to say that I don't like the people I can't get on with, or that I think there's anything wrong with them as people. All I'm simply trying to say is that some personal qualities, though perfectly good in themselves, can simply clash with others, so that anyone who has those qualities will find it difficult to get along with the clashing ones.

    A simple analogy would be if someone loves sport, and someone else hates sport. Loving or not loving sport are not good or bad qualities, they're just aspects of a person that can exist or not exist. But if you put the two together and expect them to spend long periods of time together, then it's unlikely that arguments will be avoided. They can agree to disagree, and decide not to spend time around each other, and to instead spend their free time around people who share their interests and outlooks - this is a simple manifestation of the proverb 'birds of a feather flock together' - everyone likes to be around their own 'kind', and nobody really wants to spend all their free time going through stressful situations with people who they find hard to deal with for one reason or another.

    The person who doesn't like sport, saying that they don't want to spend their free time with the other one because all he talks about is sport and they have nothing in common, isn't saying he thinks the other guy is a bad person, or that there's anything wrong with them - they're just enacting the other proverb about 'you can't choose your family, but you can choose your friends'.

    I just find it quite odd, and I might've got you wrong, so I'm asking here - do you choose to spend your free time with people that get on your nerves all the time, in order to learn how to live better with them and get along and improve your relationship with them? Or do you choose instead to spend it with people you like, like most people tend to?
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #45
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    You know, I'm not sure I would equate good with Feeling or Thinking. I've always felt that an extreme version of either could be quite twisted and evil.

    INTP's and ENFJ's tend to argue a lot. The weird thing in my case is that I usually wind up defending the INTP's behavior to the ENFJ. The INTP tends to just absorb all the criticism and chastise themselves (which they really usually don't need), so I usually attack the ENFJ's behavior, making excuses for the INTP, while accusing them of everything from distorting the situation to make themselves look good, to being tyrannical.

    I don't know what it is that makes me do this. I get along fine with ENFJ's or INTP's individually. But for some reason, if I have to interact with both at the same time, I feel weird, confused/disoriented, and slightly annoyed for some reason. I start seeing really negative things in the ENFJ that wouldn't have affected/bothered me normally. Mainly things like hypocrisy, tyranny, arbitrariness, and manipulation. I also see negative things in the INTP, but they evoke more pity than anger. Blindness, clumsiness, self-castigation, lack of willpower, and vulnerability.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    You know your FJs suck and especially ENFJs suck threads are getting rather old. You are already being called mean, evil and nasty right? Quit being such a whiner and live up to it!! You could give a damn what anyone else thinks about you anyway right?!? Give those evil ENFJs what they deserve!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute
    All I in fact said was (and I quote): "TBH mate, you two have been getting on my nerves a bit lately. I don't hate you and I'm not saying I don't want to still be friends or anything, I just think we should take a step back from each other for a bit and give each other some breathing space, or we're gonna end up really fighting. If you wanna see the kids though, that's cool - just let me know and you can pick them up whenever."

    The part about the kids is because it's this couple who've been trying for kids for years but can't have them, so I let them get their 'kid fix' by playing with my two daughters. Serves both our purposes - theirs, and also gives me some peace and a break from the kids sometimes.
    Quit pretending this isn't about salvaging free babysitting with the least amount of inconvenience to you. Every single time you post about this couple that is exactly what I get from it. I don't know if she is a much more feeling or people-pleasing person then I, but frankly I would have told you to fuck off in no uncertain terms long ago. Since she is an ENFJ chances are highly likely that she knows you don't like her. She HAS to really like your children to put up with it is all I can say. I would give free babysitting services to someone else who didn't despise me if I needed a 'fix' that bad.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  7. #47
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    You could give a damn what anyone else thinks about you anyway right?!? Give those evil ENFJs what they deserve!!!
    Another calm, reasonable response from the super-understanding ENFJ :rolli:

    Clearly I do give a damn, or I wouldn't have started this thread. When did I say I don't give a damn what people think about me?

    Quit pretending this isn't about salvaging free babysitting with the least amount of inconvenience to you. Every single time you post about this couple that is exactly what I get from it.
    Then your Ni is as way off as the other person's. And in case you hadn't noticed, I mentioned various other situations in this thread, but this was the one that seemed to get responded to, so I was only responding to other people's responses - I didn't direct it to be all about this.

    In actual fact, what "this" is "about" (meaning why I'm bothered about the situation and trying to get good advice), is not that I want to "salvage" my "free" babysitters (whose travel expenses I reimbursed, plus giving them dinner every time, plus paying them the equivalent of $10 per hour, when I could've got my other sister who lives next door to do it for free). It's because I want to simply be able to walk away from these people but in peace, without all the animosity and anger, and I want them to understand that I don't hate them, because them thinking I do is clearly hurting them, though it doesn't hurt me. And it's also causing them to do damage to other friendships of mine which are more important to me.

    Believe me, the last thing I want is for them to babysit for me again - they cost me enough already, not to mention the stuff they broke and the mess they made. I wasn't fucking doing it for me.

    Read what I said earlier about people wanting to do good for others for reasons other than empathy.

    Oh, and also, what else it's about, is that I'm often surrounded by a lot of people who are very different to me and who don't understand me at all, and as people tend to do with people who are different, I get judged and picked on and generally made to feel like shit all the time, as if I'm the worst person on the planet. As I said in the OP, this is what bothers me, and I'm sick of having to treat me real, proper friends as a pressure valve to get the stress they cause me out of my system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    You know your FJs suck and especially ENFJs suck threads are getting rather old.
    Oh, and this? You just proved the point. At no point anywhere on this forum have I said that FJ's suck or ENFJ's suck, either in my opinion or anything else. All I've ever said, and been very careful to be sure I said, was that I personally can't seem to get along with them, but that this is as much due to me as to them.

    This is exactly the problem. No matter how clear I try to be, you've been determined to see everything as a personal insult - even when I'm talking about an imaginary group in a psychological theory system type thing, and couldn't possibly be getting at you, personally, you've still taken it as though I had.

    Remarkable.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Substitute
    It's because I want to simply be able to walk away from these people but in peace, without all the animosity and anger, and I want them to understand that I don't hate them, because them thinking I do is clearly hurting them, though it doesn't hurt me. And it's also causing them to do damage to other friendships of mine which are more important to me.
    Then why don't you just simply walk away? End it. In case you fail to realize this you are drawing out and making worse what could be very simple.
    All I in fact said was (and I quote): "TBH mate, you two have been getting on my nerves a bit lately. I don't hate you and I'm not saying I don't want to still be friends or anything, I just think we should take a step back from each other for a bit and give each other some breathing space, or we're gonna end up really fighting. If you wanna see the kids though, that's cool - just let me know and you can pick them up whenever."
    Instead of saying this (which is contradictory to what you claim to want) state the truth like you just did to me above. You don't want to be friends so why not say so?
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  9. #49
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    On no account did I ever suggest to them that it was anything but a sorta 'marriage of convenience' to me - I never even pretended to be 'in love'... I just think 'culpable' is quite a strong word... it suggests I've done something wrong... maybe something a bit naive and stupid, in taking people at their word and expecting them to do the same... but not wrong. I don't think I've committed a fault there.
    Mea culpa.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    One could say that any attempt to deceive is potentially malicious, even if not in intent, then certainly in effect, especially long-term effect.
    Yes, yes, I've talked about this many times and even wrote a paper about it. Deception is the inherent vice of communication, an unfortunate by product. Like breathing, it deposits toxic carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. But we can't stop breathing or communicating can we?

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    So do I, but one has to draw the line somewhere. If I've made as much effort as I and those who know me consider is reasonable - and then gone beyond that as I usually do - and things still aren't working out, there comes a time when you have to call it quits.
    Yeah, I agree with this. I'm not saying you have to continue to try to get along with people there is no hope of getting along with. That's not what I'm saying at all. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm, that's one possible conclusion... but not the first one I'd have thought of. I'd have probably said more like "...then you've probably got some personality trait that clashes with another personality trait that all of those people have in common".
    Then to me it's preferable to say there are personality trait that you don't mesh well with and not people that you don't get along with. People are more than one or five traits that you/they continue to rub each other raw with. With myself, I've noticed that if someone reminds me of someone I didn't/don't get along with, I tend to transfer those feelings to this person who is an innocent bystander. They've done absolutely nothing to me to make me feel this way about them. It's really nothing they've done, just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I still can't help sensing a tone of judgement in what you say there, proteanmix... I mean, it's this sorta assertion that if you don't get along with someone, there has to be something wrong with you if you just can't make it work... I'm not trying to say that I don't like the people I can't get on with, or that I think there's anything wrong with them as people. All I'm simply trying to say is that some personal qualities, though perfectly good in themselves, can simply clash with others, so that anyone who has those qualities will find it difficult to get along with the clashing ones.
    But at what point did you build up a resistance towards EFJ qualities? It had to start somewhere. You weren't born with an innate intolerance of Fe or whatever it is that repels you and these people. This is mostly learned behavior that's been reinforced over and over again. Not to say this isn't genuine, but it had a beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I just find it quite odd, and I might've got you wrong, so I'm asking here - do you choose to spend your free time with people that get on your nerves all the time, in order to learn how to live better with them and get along and improve your relationship with them? Or do you choose instead to spend it with people you like, like most people tend to?
    This is my perspective on what you're asking me, it need not apply to anyone else, just my POV on your question.

    Short answer: no, I don't choose to spend my free time with people who annoy the unholy hell out of me. I choose to spend my time with people that I get along with, that are tolerant of my faults and are tolerant of mine, who share my interests, and who want to spend time with me, all the other reasons why we spend time with people we like, etc. etc.

    Now for people that I MUST spend time with, e.g., disliked coworker, intolerable family member, filthy roommate, that I have no immediate way out of dealing with them, then I'm just going to have to find a way to deal with them. For my own sanity, screw everyone else, for ME, I'm going to have to find a way to deal with them. I'll find a way to deal with them. If for example, it's a coworker and I need to work with to complete a project then I find an intermediary to deal with them, I CC my boss on emails so that someone else sees communication, I formally schedule meetings with them and invite another attendee, I keep non-work related communication to a minimum, whatever I can do to keep myself from having high blood pressure and ulcers then I do it.

    If trying to solve the problem doesn't work and I don't care about how the fallout looks then yes, it may get nasty. But that's only after all other attempts to rectify the situation has ended in disaster. This sounds like what's happening to your ENFJ.

    So how much grief we can cause!

    ETA: So much sexual tension around here!!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #50
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    Then why don't you just simply walk away? End it. In case you fail to realize this you are drawing out and making worse what could be very simple. Instead of saying this (which is contradictory to what you claim to want) state the truth like you just did to me above. You don't want to be friends so why not say so?
    Argh! I tried to walk away and end it, but they've been running around telling a load of bullshit to everyone else and trying to damage my other friendships!

    And the reason I said it like I did was to try and cushion it to them so they wouldn't be hurt! I was at a loss as to how to handle it, so, acknowledging my limitations, I looked for advice from others, and the overwhelming majority advised being gentle and letting them down slowly. The intention was to just let the first round sorta blow over, and then just gradually drift away. I figured that way they'd save some face and wouldn't have to feel like it was personal, and they wouldn't be so upset. But it all just went wrong. Dammit, can't a guy do anything right?!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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