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  1. #21
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Example of what I was just saying about equating empathy with right actions and judgements:
    Hmm, I'm afraid I'm with the ENFJ on this one. If your conversations go this way, I think this has to do with a rather serious divide between the way you communicate and think others hear you...

    Course, I would of just walked off on you at the start rather than even talk to you. It's irrelevent how you think of me, but you probably wouldn't of finished the sentance where "not the one I'd choose to spend time around" before I would of been gone... the only difference is that they'll make an effort to win you over.

  2. #22
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Substitute, no one can mess with a person's head like family. It sounds like you are a thinker in a family full of feelers.
    This is true, but the others I mentioned are not family.

    Anyway my point is that these FJ's don't understand you but they do care about you.
    See, this is where I have the big problem. If I care about someone, it's kinda logical that I want them to be happy. I want to do things that make them happy. In order to do this, I need to understand what makes them happy and what doesn't, so that I can tailor my 'good deeds' to their needs, and be assured of a good result all round.

    By simply saying you care about someone and then just randomly doing 'good stuff' for them, based on what you would want, or what you think they want (without understanding or checking with them), all you'll end up doing is annoying them, upsetting them and, at best, the only result you're likely to get is them pretending they're grateful and happy with what you did just because they'd feel guilty for telling you you're a pain in the ass.

    I think the key is to "spin" everything into an answer that everyone can deal with.
    Yeah I could do this in my sleep, I've been doing it all my life though and I'm sick of it - I want to be honest, I'm sick of having to hide my real nature and who I really am from people who profess to love/care about me. I want to just be myself and not have to feel like I'm a criminal for it all the time. I don't want to keep on lying to people to placate them. If that's what they really want me to do then all I can say is that they don't really care about me as much as they claim, and their desire to help is obviously based more on selfishness, on their own need to 'feel good', than on any true desire to know, love or understand me or to make me happy.

    And by the way, who gave the stars to this thread? I've never had a thread of mine 'starred' before!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #23
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Firstly, those are your kids. The couple that you've let play with them need to realize that. I think that's the most important thing.

    Since you say this couple is childless and badly want children, they seem to have formed an attachment to your kids. The ENFJ may feel like their surrogate mother and honestly love them like her own. It would be hurtful for the couple to have the kids taken away from them. But it also seems like you benefited from the couple as babysitters. You also gained something from this relationship. The couple may recognize this and feel a little used as well. It's not like you let them spend time with your kids because you wanted to purely wanted to ease their child-aches. I think this adds another dimension to the situation because the couple may feel like they had the carrot of kids dangled in front of their noses, only to be snatched away and they're retaliating by badmouthing you. But like I said, the most important things that they realize is that the children are not theirs. Does the woman typically go around badmouthing people, is this her MO? If not, then it's probably directly related to the situation and should be handled as such. There's a cause and effect working here. It's an very unfortunate, but they really have no say in the matter.

    I'm not trying to criticize you because I've done this myself: what you feel are your bests efforts to communicate tactfully and diplomatically may not be perceived as such. You can't always put words and actions out into the atmosphere and just because the intent was goodness and love expect them to be interpreted as such. OTOH it's good that you tried. You can't control how people will react. You can try to cushion the blow, but that's no guarantee that it will work. This sounds like a complicated situation with lots of feelings involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    In short, all the FJ's I know seem to demonstrate an attitude that presumes the only true good in the world is the result of pure empathy, and that without empathy, no good is possible. Therefore, it seems to be their view, most people with a strong Thinking preference are at best, evil people who might be able to 'resist' evil and appear good, by imitating Feeler behaviour.
    That's a really childish and immature POV if even a quarter of the FJs you know believe that. But I will say if you realize you have a stronger than average Thinking preference that some of your actions will look more foreign to an average to stronger Feelers because of strength of preferences. Those are very black and white terms to coming from you and the FJs you have to deal with.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, actually it's funny that the FJ's who've responded have been INFJ's, haha...
    Considering the number of INFJs to ENFJs vs. other FJs that post here is it any surprise? Also, I don't feel compelled to respond to every topic that involves ENFJs but this one caught my attention.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It is ExFJ's that are the worst with this, in my experience... and what makes it even worse is that there's just no getting through when you try to talk to them or reason with them - they're so convinced that they're these perfectly righteous people that they refuse to entertain any idea that anything they've done could've made you legitimately annoyed/upset. If anything upset you that they did, it's always because of some flaw in you, n'est-ce pas?

    Or am I just cursed by living in a place where all the most unhealthy, immature ExFJ's go to live?
    Not to devalue anything of what you've said, but I still am not understanding why you have this problem consistently with EFJs and why you rarely have this problem with other types, say ENTJs. That says something about your communication with them as a group. I'd ask myself if there are certain types of people that I'm incapable of getting along with then I need to do some changing within myself. Honestly, this isn't the first time you've mentioned this. I don't know if it's the same problem with the same people or different problems with different EFJs.

    From what you post about I am of the impression that you have fonder feelings towards ENTJs (and other types) and may overlook some of the things that they do that piss you off, whereas EFJs don't have that same courtesy and nearly everything they do sets you off. I'm not trying to blame you, just trying to ask you how are you contributing to the situation and what triggers EFJs tend to set off in you.

    I don't know the EFJs in your life and nor am I trying to take their side. They could be incredibly immature people. When I'm wrong and people point it out to me I hope that I have good sense to back up a few steps and be reasonable, but we tend to be blind to these aspects of ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    But I suppose ENFJs would have more of an issue with criticizing other people like that, since that introversion isn't there to weigh their judgment against their own actions. Or does that conflict with the eight level model?.. I don't know a thing about Si and Te and.. those still confuse me.
    Is this a special problem for ENFJs? Possibly, I don't know. I try (not that I'm always successful) to keep my mouth shut and let people do what they're going to do, right or wrong, no matter what I think they should do. It's their life to live.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #24
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    ...(Although INFJ's are not really like this as much as the other FJ's.)...
    You all kill me with this INFJ worship on the forum. :rolli:
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #25
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, I'm afraid I'm with the ENFJ on this one. If your conversations go this way, I think this has to do with a rather serious divide between the way you communicate and think others hear you...

    Course, I would of just walked off on you at the start rather than even talk to you. It's irrelevent how you think of me, but you probably wouldn't of finished the sentance where "not the one I'd choose to spend time around" before I would of been gone... the only difference is that they'll make an effort to win you over.
    Well no, okay so at that point of the conversation we'd already been talking for about two hours where I'd been trying my best to subtly and gently put things to them. I'd previously tried it in several other ways:

    1. You know that any two people who spend too much time together, even if they're the best of friends, they end up getting in each other's faces a bit after a while. I'm not saying you're really in my face or anything, but I just want to say I'm worried that this might happen, I just think we've been together constantly for weeks now and it'd be best for both of us to have a bit of space before things start getting tense. I've had a great time with you and I want to keep it that way, I don't want to risk spoiling my nice memories of this week with bad ones of us falling out at the end because we just got stressed from being under each other's skin all the time.

    No, that one didn't work. She just said that she didn't feel annoyed by me at all and was quite happy to stick around, if I didn't mind.

    I tried other kinder ways of telling her that, actually, I did mind... but I found that every time I tried to say it nicely, she just didn't get the hint. I started to be a bit more blunt, and she started to pick up on it, and actually said to me in her own words that she sensed I was holding something back, and asked me to be direct and tell her what was troubling me. I said she wasn't going to like it and that I didn't want to hurt her feelings, and that I wasn't sure I'd be able to say it in a way that she wouldn't misconstrue - I gave dozens of other similar warnings and caveats, and then before I even 'launched' into the more honest approach, I began with a very serious and emphatic 'disclaimer' that I wanted her to remember throughout the whole conversation that I think of her as one of the forces for good in the world, a great person who I've been lucky to know, and that I in no way want her to think that I have a bad opinion of her. I said that the problems I'm having are very likely more due to me and my own hangups, and that I just didn't want to inflict them on her.

    It was only after hours of me trying to talk like this that I became so frustrated at being misunderstood that I was going for maximum clarity, sacrificing all diplomacy in the process.

    EDIT - also, I doubt it would've got that far with you dude - if I'd said to you that I just fancied some time to myself, I'm sure you'd have said 'fair enough then mate', and left me to it. Which is what the ENFJ should've done, instead of giving me the third degree about it!!
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  6. #26
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    Since you say this couple is childless and badly want children, they seem to have formed an attachment to your kids. The ENFJ may feel like their surrogate mother and honestly love them like her own. It would be hurtful for the couple to have the kids taken away from them.
    Please bear in mind that I specifically said to them that they could see the kids any time they liked, and only had to say. I in no way even suggested that I was 'taking them away', exactly the opposite.

    Not to devalue anything of what you've said, but I still am not understanding why you have this problem consistently with EFJs and why you rarely have this problem with other types, say ENTJs. That says something about your communication with them as a group. I'd ask myself if there are certain types of people that I'm incapable of getting along with then I need to do some changing within myself. Honestly, this isn't the first time you've mentioned this. I don't know if it's the same problem with the same people or different problems with different EFJs.
    No you're right - I totally admit that I have a HUGE block when it comes to these types, but the way I feel about it is that I'm quite happy to just say to myself, 'Ah well, can't please 'em all' and just stay out of their way. But they seldom are - they've always got to do the politics and can't just "let me go" without judging me. I mean I'm quite happy to just say that I'd rather not deal with them if possible, but there's no hard feelings - totally acknowledging that the problem is as much with me as with them, if not more so. But it never goes both ways - they treat me as though I'm morally obliged to get along with them... this is what frustrates me, because we fundamentally disagree on whether or not it's either possible or desirable for everyone to please everyone.

    I don't know what I'm supposed to do about the problem, because the only thing that seems acceptable from the ENJ's POV is that I basically just lie to them, that I adopt insincerity and fakery to please them... this is just repugnant to me. I'd rather be hated for who I really am, than loved for something I'm not... what frustrates me is that they even manage to hate me for something I'm not!! LOL The worst of both worlds!!!

    My only request would be this: fine, hate me if you like, but at least hate me for who I really am, and don't try to turn other people against me just because you don't like me.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  7. #27
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Is this a special problem for ENFJs? Possibly, I don't know. I try (not that I'm always successful) to keep my mouth shut and let people do what they're going to do, right or wrong, no matter what I think they should do. It's their life to live.
    Maybe more of a tendency would be the best word? And perhaps more of an ExxJ than more specific? I just throw ideas out as they come to me. >.> I don't pretend to be an expert at this. (yet ) I think it's a problem for everyone, really, but Is would be quicker to notice and correct themselves, and Ps would be more apt to not worry about what others are doing.

    Sub... I had that VERY same problem while talking to my (I strongly believe) ESFP friend/ex. With him growing further into SP and me further into NJ, we REALLY have trouble understanding each other.. and when we try to work it out just get so frustrated! I let a thought slip about "Maybe we should just cut ties, all we seem to do is hurt each other." Which I meant as an innocent observation, but it was met with a "F*** you!" and he stamped off to lock himself in the bathroom. Further proving my point...

    ..Gragh at people who can't tell the difference between frustration and anger!

    Actually.. that's a good indicator..

    frustration:
    anger:

    teehee!
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  8. #28
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    I believe that the root of alot human suffering starts from communication problems related to dishonesty. The little and big lies people make everyday to "ease things through" only are an advantage in the short term but they are not in the long term. Communication happens also at the non verbal (body language) level. Evidence exists suggesting that when we say something we don't believe in, it shows in our body language. People pick up the queues subconsciously wether they like it or not. There is then a lack of synchronicity between verbal and non verbal language which creates a "double message" which is very confusing to the other person. These kind of messages are debilitating and dangerous to people because it brings them to doubt of their own perceptions. On one hand their intuition/gut tells them something, on the other the other person says something else. It forces people to disconnect themselves from their gut feelings.

    The problem is that people are babysitted about the truth. Lying is an essential social skill. People lie to others about how much they like something, how they get along with you, how they agree with you, they might even lie about disagreeing for social purposes when they agree,... And they think being good means lying for people's feelings. If someone asks me if they're fat and I say "yes", I'm an asshole. You see, I'm supposed to let them live in la-la land. Same if a person asks me if their piece of art is good. If I say I don't like it, I am seen as an asshole. Again, a "good" person would have left them in la-la land.

    Basically, people live in a "Matrix" and the FJ's are like the Agent Smith's coming to get you for trying to bust the social system.

    Imagine a world where everyone would constantly say what they thought. You'd be forced to become tolerant of others because you couldn't possibly fight with everybody. You'd be forced to work on your own feelings and acknowledge and respect others' right to say what they think. The artist with the painting I don't like would then be forced to realize I have the *right* not to like the painting and the artist must understand not everyone will like the painting. It makes people grow up and stop being babies and demand that other people change themselves for them.

    Many Feelers into the MBTI think Thinkers are "evil". Well, I don't need someone patronizing me about what I can or cannot hear. Their good behaviors are dependent on what they feel about you or others. They are conditional and will be good unless they have no empathy for you or bad feelings. That is not being good. Being truly good is treating everyone the same regardless of what you feel for them (cf. Kant). A truly good person should treat his enemies the same as his friends.

  9. #29
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    I believe that the root of alot human suffering starts from communication problems related to dishonesty...
    Yet again...

    And wolfmaiden - I'm glad to see that it happens even in inter-Feeler relationships as well!

    Well, I mean I'm not glad to see you have problems with your friend, in fact I'm sorry and it must be quite frustrating. But I mean I'm glad in the sense that people mean it when they feel consoled about not being the only one... lol But you knew that, I was just re-iterating to be clear
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  10. #30
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    See, this is where I have the big problem. If I care about someone, it's kinda logical that I want them to be happy. I want to do things that make them happy. In order to do this, I need to understand what makes them happy and what doesn't, so that I can tailor my 'good deeds' to their needs, and be assured of a good result all round.

    By simply saying you care about someone and then just randomly doing 'good stuff' for them, based on what you would want, or what you think they want (without understanding or checking with them), all you'll end up doing is annoying them, upsetting them and, at best, the only result you're likely to get is them pretending they're grateful and happy with what you did just because they'd feel guilty for telling you you're a pain in the ass.

    Yeah I could do this in my sleep, I've been doing it all my life though and I'm sick of it - I want to be honest, I'm sick of having to hide my real nature and who I really am from people who profess to love/care about me. I want to just be myself and not have to feel like I'm a criminal for it all the time. I don't want to keep on lying to people to placate them. If that's what they really want me to do then all I can say is that they don't really care about me as much as they claim, and their desire to help is obviously based more on selfishness, on their own need to 'feel good', than on any true desire to know, love or understand me or to make me happy.
    Yes, I very much understand your viewpoint. I think I've given up on many people though. I look at some people and think that they just don't "get it" and probably never will. In my experience there are a lot of friendly people that seem to care about me, but very few that will take the time to get to know who I really am. So these are the people I invest in, and I don't really get riled up about the others. You can't really change people, especially if they are people that are not invested enough in you that they don't take the time to find out who you are. So it's best to accept that these people will simply be the way they are and either be fake to them to keep things simple, or be real and piss them off. They aren't really worth getting riled up about unless they care enough about you in the first place to get to know who you are.
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