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  1. #11
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    But... but... but ENTP's can't just accept stuff like this. It's part of our nature to belieeeeve that things can be changed, they can be improved - misunderstandings can be cleared up, problems can be solved - any two things no matter how different and opposing can be reconciled - anything is possible! If I just gave up and started accepting that things suck and there's nothing I can do about it, I'd whither and die!!!



    I don't know how I could've put it any other way without having to be dishonest. I was already stretching the truth quite a ways already, by implying I was concerned that we shouldn't end up fighting all the time... in fact I just wanted them out of my face for a bit! But, knowing they'd find that hurtful (ruling out autism) and not wanting to hurt them (ruling out evil), I tried to cushion it a bit. To me, that was cushioned!!!
    Yea, I understand that but alot of times it my heart dictating interpretation instead of my head who can logically be like ok, I'll give him a few weeks then call and see if he still needs space. I have a friend who often needs space, I've learned not to take offense when she wants me gone, I'm always very cautious when approaching her about things. She's also paranoid about everything so I often times have to explain that no I do not have ulterior motives. I can't help you win this battle, maybe you can't win. Ok so I know I'm not helping, let me think about this for a bit.

  2. #12
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    .
    So... is that something that ENFJs struggle with? Not making something a public campaign? Or is this just a personal flaw within this friend?
    Yeah, actually it's funny that the FJ's who've responded have been INFJ's, haha... thinking about it, though I never tend to really feel a great 'click' with INFJ's, they are the FJ's I find easiest to get along with, though as I say, I find them just as hard to really be on cordial, good terms with as the others.

    It is ExFJ's that are the worst with this, in my experience... and what makes it even worse is that there's just no getting through when you try to talk to them or reason with them - they're so convinced that they're these perfectly righteous people that they refuse to entertain any idea that anything they've done could've made you legitimately annoyed/upset. If anything upset you that they did, it's always because of some flaw in you, n'est-ce pas?

    Or am I just cursed by living in a place where all the most unhealthy, immature ExFJ's go to live?
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  3. #13
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Surely that's not true goodness though - surely that's actually selfishness?! I mean, if I sit next to someone on a bench who is crying, and I try to make them feel better, it's not because I get anything out of it - I don't! It doesn't make me sad just because they are, and when they're happy it doesn't make me any happier than I already was.
    Yes.. this is a paradox I find myself weighing my self worth over almost every day. But I find comfort in just saying that because I operate out of such a method, it's a nice balance between loving myself AND others, and doing what's best for me ends up helping other people even more in the long run, since at my best, I then give that strength to as many as I can. Or if I'm down, I go make people happy, or be around happy people to cheer me up. A two way street.

    Of course in saying that, I speak for myself and perhaps not all INFJs.

    Or maybe it's that same insecurity that drives the NFs you have to deal with to rationalize themselves into people who are perfectly righteous? And makes it so easy to blame any other way of impartially showing care as evil? Because otherwise their way would be selfish?

    I think I'm overgeneralizing.
    Forming characters! Whose? Our own or others? Both. And in that momentous fact lies the peril and responsibility of our existence. - Elihu Burritt

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  4. #14
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Hmmm...

    You know what offends me? Using terms like Autistic so lightly. I believe that applying it to cases where it clearly doesn't apply decreases the impact and effect of actually having the disorder. I find it ironic that the empathetic ones would use a disorder as an attack, for if you did have autism as they sorta say, they should be showing empathy for your disorder, while if they don't really believe you have the disorder, they are not only insulting you but also making light of those with the disorder.

    In any case, I've never had this problem... and I can't say my empathy is very high.

  5. #15
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    Yes.. this is a paradox I find myself weighing my self worth over almost every day. But I find comfort in just saying that because I operate out of such a method, it's a nice balance between loving myself AND others, and doing what's best for me ends up helping other people even more in the long run, since at my best, I then give that strength to as many as I can. A two way street.
    Yeah, but I don't think there's anything wrong with loving yourself. In fact, I think there is something wrong with not loving yourself. I mean, think about it - how offensive is it, how insulting, to expect other people to tolerate you, to approach others or ask or desire others to be in your life, if you even believe yourself to be not worthy, to be a piece of shit? If I saw a movie I hated, I wouldn't recommend someone I like to watch it, would I? So if you hate yourself, how can you dare to desire anyone to be with you?

    My religious beliefs are that self-hatred is actually a sin against God, I mean, if he put himself through death on a cross for love of you, then to say you hate yourself and you believe you're worthless is pretty offensive to him, isn't it? I believe self-hatred gets between us and God (those of us who are religious), so I'll fight that as hard as people say I should fight arrogance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmmm...

    You know what offends me? Using terms like Autistic so lightly. I believe that applying it to cases where it clearly doesn't apply decreases the impact and effect of actually having the disorder. I find it ironic that the empathetic ones would use a disorder as an attack, for if you did have autism as they sorta say, they should be showing empathy for your disorder, while if they don't really believe you have the disorder, they are not only insulting you but also making light of those with the disorder.
    I agree - that's just something I thought I'd leave aside for the moment, how deeply insulting it is to autistic people, and how just plain dumb it is to throw around the word like that as though it's an explanation for anyone not pleasing you (her). And it's her impression of it being a mental illness by the way, that I'm reporting, not my own. I love my little Aspies daughter and sincerely wouldn't want to have her any other way
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  6. #16
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I agree - that's just something I thought I'd leave aside for the moment, how deeply insulting it is to autistic people, and how just plain dumb it is to throw around the word like that as though it's an explanation for anyone not pleasing you (her). And it's her impression of it being a mental illness by the way, that I'm reporting, not my own. I love my little Aspies daughter and sincerely wouldn't want to have her any other way
    I just find it insulting... quite so. This has become a more recent crusade for me, I suppose, because I think using disorders as insults hurts not only the disorder, the issues and the challenges they face, but is used as an insult whereas the diagnosis should be used to help people.

    We all have issues to different degrees... The irony here, of course, goes even deeper - considering that you are even capable of empathy towards your daughter, who is autistic and who you take care of only to have them attack you for the exact opposite using the disorder that you have to work with...

    I must admit, reading that really steamed me up. I would of shown them my version of "empathy" had I been in the room when they said that. Apparently they need to learn some respect and decency along with their good natured empathy.

    /rant

  7. #17
    *ears perk up* wolfmaiden14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, but I don't think there's anything wrong with loving yourself. In fact, I think there is something wrong with not loving yourself. I mean, think about it - how offensive is it, how insulting, to expect other people to tolerate you, to approach others or ask or desire others to be in your life, if you even believe yourself to be not worthy, to be a piece of shit? If I saw a movie I hated, I wouldn't recommend someone I like to watch it, would I? So if you hate yourself, how can you dare to desire anyone to be with you?

    My religious beliefs are that self-hatred is actually a sin against God, I mean, if he put himself through death on a cross for love of you, then to say you hate yourself and you believe you're worthless is pretty offensive to him, isn't it? I believe self-hatred gets between us and God (those of us who are religious), so I'll fight that as hard as people say I should fight arrogance.
    My thoughts exactly.

    I think the best thing someone can do for anyone is to BE selfish. If you know and love yourself, then it's easier to accept others as who they are, be willing to listen to criticism and to not give anyone else false impressions from pretending to be someone else.

    Which.. is also why I think perhaps you ARE just dealing with NFs who are insecure somehow.

    But I suppose ENFJs would have more of an issue with criticizing other people like that, since that introversion isn't there to weigh their judgment against their own actions. Or does that conflict with the eight level model?.. I don't know a thing about Si and Te and.. those still confuse me.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I just find it insulting... quite so. ...
    I must admit, reading that really steamed me up. I would of shown them my version of "empathy" had I been in the room when they said that. Apparently they need to learn some respect and decency along with their good natured empathy.

    /rant
    Tell it, brother!

    Actually that's another one of my bugbears regarding my experiences with ExFJ's - this conviction/equation of knowing how others feel and being in tune with their emotions, with actually knowing how to respond best to them, and always responding in the correct way. Which is quite simply just not the case - especially when it comes to Thinkers, who put far less store in their emotions than them, and whose emotions are a much smaller factor in their choices and responses, so they so easily fall into the trap of 'sensing' our emotions and then assuming that what we're saying has something to do with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfmaiden14 View Post
    Which.. is also why I think perhaps you ARE just dealing with a smidge of NFs who are insecure somehow.

    But I suppose ENFJs would have more of an issue ...
    Um, it's ESFJ's too... and ISFJ's but to a lesser extent. If I were to list the types in order of which I get on with from worst to best, it'd go something like this:

    ENFJ
    ESFJ
    ESTP
    ISFJ
    INFJ
    ISFP
    INTP
    INTJ
    ESTJ
    ENTP
    ESFP
    ENFP
    ISTJ
    ISTP
    INFP=ENTJ
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  9. #19
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Example of what I was just saying about equating empathy with right actions and judgements:

    ENFJ: So you're saying that you don't think I'm worth your time because I don't come up to your standards?
    Me: No, that's nothing like what I meant. [frustration showing in my voice] I'm simply saying that I find you too much hard work to be around, but in no way is this any cause for me to judge you. It's probably a fault in me that makes me not be able to get along with you smoothly - I'm just trying to be honest here and reduce both of our stress loads.
    ENFJ: But you are judging me, because you're saying you don't want to see me any more.
    Me: No, that's not judging, that's just me making a choice about what I do with my free time. I'm not saying that just because I don't want to spend time with someone, I therefore think they're a bad person. I'm not some supreme arbiter of human worth - all it means if I don't want to spend time with you is that you and I are incompatible. It doesn't mean anything about my opinion of you as a human being. [agitation and exasperation with seemingly wilful misunderstanding showing in my tone of voice]
    ENFJ: But listen to yourself - your voice is full of anger and you're insulting me because you just can't handle the fact that I disagree with you.
    Me: No, my voice is full of anger because I'm trying to communicate my feelings and thoughts to you, but you keep twisting what I say to make out that I'm trying to upset you.
    ENFJ: But you are upsetting me.
    Me: It's not my intention! I'm actually saying the exact opposite of what you keep telling me I'm saying, you're doing my fucking head in!
    ENFJ: You see? You're just flying off the handle at me, it's quite clear to me that I annoy the hell out of you and you just don't want anything to do with me, you think I'm stupid and not worth your time.
    Me: NOOOOOOO!!!!! I'm saying you're alright and a good person, just not my cup of tea ffs! Clearly I'm not your cup of tea either, so I don't know why you're having such a problem with it!
    ENFJ: That's right, now you're trying to make out it's me who's insulting you.
    Me: NO!!!! ARGHGHGHGHG why do you keep putting everything I say down to anger when the only reason I'm angry is because you're NOT LISTENING to me, and the only response it's causing is to make me keep trying to EXPLAIN to you! Why don't you listen to my WORDS instead of focusing on my feelings and trying to interpret my words in light of them? The words have nothing to do with my feelings, I'm talking about something totally separate to what's currently causing me to feel angry and frustrated!!
    ENFJ: Yeah, whatever sub, well, since you've made it quite clear what you think of me, I just won't bother you any more. Goodbye (flounce off).
    Me: Dude, you've just walked out with a fixed idea that you know what I think of you, but in fact, you haven't a fucking clue... sigh!
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  10. #20
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Substitute, no one can mess with a person's head like family. It sounds like you are a thinker in a family full of feelers. All I can say is
    RUN! RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!














    ...but seriously, I think a lot of this simply has to do with the frustration different types have in dealing with each other. In this case it is FJ vs. TP. As far as functions go Fe is probably the most empathetic function, but FJ's don't really have a strong function to balance these feelings with understanding the whole picture. Ne and Se are better and putting all the details together in a coherant piece, but if the person is TP then they are usually not too sensitive to the feelings of others. FJ is very caring but not necessarily understanding, while TP is understanding but not necessarily caring. To put it another way FJ's are so focused on a person's feelings that I wonder if they see that there is more to people than just feelings. (Although INFJ's are not really like this as much as the other FJ's.) FP's are probably the best at dealing with people in that they have a good balance of empathizing with people and while having an understanding of people in general, while TJ's are not really good at either. ("Now quit dreaming and get back to work.")

    Anyway my point is that these FJ's don't understand you but they do care about you. Tell them that they really hurt you by calling you evil and autistic, but you are willing to forgive them if they forgive you. Also tell them that the whole thing has been so emotionally distressing that it would be best if you didn't have to interact with this ENFJ and INTP couple for a little while, but you'll get over it after a little while and of course the couple is welcome to spend time with your girls if they wish. (Or come up with your own similar plan which I'm sure you are capabale of. ) I think the key is to "spin" everything into an answer that everyone can deal with.
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