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  1. #1
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Default Sensate Leadership--An Intuit's Issues

    I'm having a serious problem dealing with certain Sensate leaders in my purview. I'm a 1w2 ENFJ, or I'm relatively sure...and I'm driven to try to solve problems I see--the cracks in the foundation of community that so often underminds and destroys it. If I am not given the opportunity, I am at a loss, and I suffer, personally for it when the community fails. With sensate leaders, the things my instinct tells me can save the community, get tossed to the wayside and are not considered.

    Then the community blows up, or in the very least, fails in some major way that I predicted, and dissolves. I'm right often enough that I've learned to trust my instincts.

    Needless to say, I've also learned that I have a place, sometimes, that place isn't one of leadership. It hurts like hell when the communities I love go under. It has gotten to the point that when the leadership is too closed off to listen, whether do to pride, their immaturity, (or possibly?) my immaturity, I need to step back.

    So I have one question, if you guys wouldn't mind humoring me with a little analysis...

    How can I best reach Sensate leadership? I admit, I believe I am an amiable guy, despite my reformist tendencies, but perhaps that's not enough to have my gut feelings heard.

    --Fuzzy
    Love is the point.

  2. #2
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes!!!!!! If you have any advice in this area, I need to know!!! Nearly all school principals are SJs of some variety. So are the majority of people who want to be on committees or lead them. If they do consider new ideas, it is usually only after they have been proven for some time elsewhere and someone else has endorsed it that they respect. I don't want to be in leadership, yet find myself relentlessly mentally moving furniture in my head. I am considering some different vein of work and I think I need something where I can make a difference behind the scenes. However, the success of that is seeing a need within a school, identifying a solution and being able to convince those in leadership that breaking new ground in this area would glean huge rewards for them as a policy maker or an administrator.

  3. #3
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    I'm super glad somebody knows what I'm talking about!! It's like, I don't even need to be in leadership, I just need to have the leader's ear. I don't want the credit for the position, but I am willing to help lift the burden. If they would just listen to me and accept me, I'd fulfill the role of teacher's aid quite well. They can have the power, as long as the community is healthy and growing, and that way, we both get what we want.

    Ideally, I'm an underleader who has the power to move the furniture. Like the commander on a flagship, my position will hold prestige of it's own, because I made the community great, beneath a leader who oversees and directs it all.

    Fidi, I like what you said concerning the SJs, and how they need to hear it from somebody they respect, or that the method would have to have been around for a long time. I find even after I present the evidence, they still have a difficult time accepting it from me if I haven't consistantly done something that impresses them in some way. S's are fickle creatures. I don't perform like that, unless I'm doing what comes naturally to me...community building. I guess the smarter ones might understand the value, but it's been a long while since I've come across one. Maybe I need to get out of the Single's ministry altogether when there are no "real adults" involved to lead.
    Love is the point.

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Don't have a lot to say right now, although I'm interested in the answers.

    The quintessential administrator is ESTJ, however. I'd think about typical ESTJ approaches and needs in communication and success, then tailor communications that way. What makes them tick? What validates an idea, to them? What sort of changes seem preferable or potentially successful naturally in their view, and would they naturally implement them?

    I actually don't find ESTJs that disagreeable, if you speak their language.
    But you definitely gotta get away from that NF-people abstraction focus and quantify things more, they don't really speak in that language or accept it as valid support for an idea.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    1. Concepts and Ideas Grounded and Solidified in Reality Are Necessary.
    2. Prior Successful Usage of Concept Helps...
    3. Presentation of Numbers and Data Helps...
    4. Usage of Concept by Respected Party(ies) Helps...
    5. Presentation of Concept by Respected Party(ies) Helps...
    6. Presentation of Ideas that Meet the Ends of the Leader (that also have a mutual benefit to community building that remains unmentioned) Are Necessary.
    7. Pie Charts and Visible Aids Help...
    Love is the point.

  6. #6
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I found that over time, some of the novel ideas that I discussed with my ESTJ boyfriend who was also a teacher were met with surprise, but later were accepted and propegated to others. However, I am not convinced that were I not someone whom he had reason to initially listen to or if he was in a position of more authority than I that he would have done so.

    I have given a lot of thought to the way that ESTJs work. One of the things I have tried to do is help them to see how this actually will make their job easier AND improve the reputation of the institute they are leading while making the best use of their employee's talents. The quintessential school principal is usually someone who has had a history as a physed teacher and who has steadily moved up the ranks. While they often have had to plan events and do scheduling, which are needful skills for administration, they are rarely the kind of people who like change. This means that even when presented with material in an appropriate manner, they are likely to be initially biased against it (much like an INFJ will be to a new idea that doesn't fit within their "system" easily). I believe that once I have a chance to present the idea, I usually am successful. It is that initial stage of opening the person's ear/time/willingness to hear about something more than just keeping things running.

  7. #7
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I found that over time, some of the novel ideas that I discussed with my ESTJ boyfriend who was also a teacher were met with surprise, but later were accepted and propigated to others. However, I am not convinced that were I not someone whom he had reason to initially listen to or if he was in a position of more authority than I that he would have done so.

    I have given a lot of thought to the way that ESTJs work. One of the things I have tried to do is help them to see how this actually will make their job easier AND improve the reputation of the institute they are leading while making the best use of their employee's talents. The quintessential school principal is usually someone who has had a history as a physed teacher and who has steadily moved up the ranks. While they often have had to plan events and do scheduling, which are needful skills for administration, they are rarely the kind of people who like change. This means that even when presented with material in an appropriate manner, they are likely to be initially biased against it (much like an INFJ will be to a new idea that doesn't fit within their "system" easily). I believe that once I have a chance to present the idea, I usually am successful. It is that initial stage of opening the person's ear/time/willingness to hear about something more than just keeping things running.
    Chart (Cond.)...
    8. Being someone of romantic interest, or a beauty of the opposite sex (ESTJs are suckers for beauty).

    I think you're right about the "initial stage"...SJs are the stereotypical gatekeepers. If you find something to get passed them, it won't really matter much after that.
    Love is the point.

  8. #8
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Maybe we just ought to be writing this in the SJ section, because none of them venture to visit here much (I don't completely blame them!). I hope that some of them will weigh in on it though.

    One of the things I've noticed is that sensors are more focussed on the "is" rather than the "ought" of things. In fact, I've heard them say many times, "What is, is" or "The past is the past".

    It took me a long time to even understand that not everyone is compelled to move mental furniture as they listen to a new speaker, or they walk into a situation. Many people do not think about where this leads down the road, as long as everything is running smoothly now.

    In many cases our compulsion to do so is seen as being critical (or in religious circles "judgemental", "closed", "unloving" etc). I have long ago learned that it is pointless to state the ought, until you have an audience who is open to hearing why the ought will matter to them. It is a helpless feeling, when you believe you see a car hurtling towards a cliff and you cannot warn people (without being thought critical) by putting up a few signs or by shouting out to the driver. I highly value the role that sensors play and do not consider myself to have superpowers. However, I think I am better able in some situations to accurately predict the result of certain courses of action.

    So I guess for me, it boils down to how do you get the ear of the people in charge? I find most people are not interested in reading. Lending a video or even discussing something also often leads to a dead end. Is it a matter of indirect influence (opening the ears of those who could influence the leader, rather than going straight to the leader directly?) If so, who is that person? SJs tend to value authority (or as you say, a SO). Is that the place to start instead?

  9. #9
    Member 4375's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One of the things I've noticed is that sensors are more focussed on the "is" rather than the "ought" of things. In fact, I've heard them say many times, "What is, is" or "The past is the past".
    That is so true. I completely focus on what is. We work with what we have.
    I am male. Don't hold it against me.

  10. #10
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I could write a book! Lots of good points above already.

    But as a summary, you need to be concise, factually oriented, and be able to give them time to process the issue you raise. With SJ's it will not be enough for you to just drop an idea, you will need to help make or even completely author the plan of execution. You need to step up to the plate and effect the plan of action to make the change happen you wish to see in the world. Then the boss gets the cred anyway, but that's ok. They were smart enough to hire you / have you around.

    Thought flow: This is my idea / issue I see, this is the problem it is causing, this is why it will help to fix it (benefit 1, 2, 3, etc) this is how it could get fixed (option 1 and 2), this is when it can be done, this is how long it will take and how much it will cost / resources required.

    Do a presentation for this if possible, then follow up with a written summary and the attached powerpoint. Then after an appropriate time for the SJ boss to reflect, follow up on your thoughts. Ask for a conclusion. Get that approval to proceed, if you need it to commence your operation. It won't be hard if you have presented a solid business case. In fact, it will often happen that you will get approval in a snap.

    (Sorry this is abbreviated, but I can expand a bit more on my personal strategies if desired.)

    SJ's are logical and reasonable creatures, so be logical and flow step to step, and set a clear timeline. But be prepared to take some ownership of what you think needs doing. I think NF's can be pretty adaptable, and can play in the SJ world with a bit of practice.

    But I do hear your feelings of helplessness in these types of situations. Work environments are easier because there is a defined leadership and line of authority. In volunteer roles or churches etc where you see group issues it can be much harder to effect the changes you feel will help grow or heal the problems you see now or that are coming. For example, in our last church, I could see that the current situation in the music ministry would lead to larger down the road issues and loss of membership. But the choral director was not open to hear that or change her ways, and I sensed our pastor was heading in a different direction on his agenda. Challenging.

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