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[MBTI General] Sensate Leadership--An Intuit's Issues

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I think you are right that we are perfectionists. We also hate making mistakes if they are foreseeable, especially if they affect others than us as well.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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Messages
14,497
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INFJ
I think patient STJs are hard to find. I don't have enough experience with SFJs to know.
 

4375

New member
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
55
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
4w3
I think you are right that we are perfectionists. We also hate making mistakes if they are foreseeable, especially if they affect others than us as well.

NF's care about others to a fault. Sometimes you have to take a chance even if you might affect some others negatively.
 

Lauren Ashley

Revelation
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,067
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I know NF's are always looking to the future of what could be. To me an SJ/NF relationship can be so amazing. One dreams and the other does. NF's have the ideas. SJ's have the tools to make them happen. Unfortunatley since they do not speak the same language it can cause failure before what could be can be realized.

Too true. My mother is ESFJ and father is INFP (officially typed), and they made a good team while I was growing up; my father liked to dream and focus on the far-off, but doesn't always take the steps to get there (this also has to do with P vs. J). My mother was very practical and helped him to bring his dreams to fruition. But, I think they both were a little annoyed by the other, although they loved each other. My mother would make jokes like "Your father is a dreamer... he never learned to be a father and take care of home (ouch, I know)" and he would joke that she stifles any kind of progress or creativity.

I think the NF can be very sensitive to their loved ones not supporting them in any way, and the SJ can be oblivious to it if the NF isn't vocal about it, and even so, they might not understand how to approach the situation. In terms of relationship matches...SJ+NF = "love can make it work." ;)
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
In the case of NFPs, we can be held up by Ne considering all the options and creating new ones. Then there's the issue of how this decision will play out in the long run and what domino effect it may have. We're big picture thinkers.
 

hermeticdancer

New member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
209
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eNFp
Enneagram
4
Go volunteer for a non for profit agency like easter seals in your comminity and start doing community organization. Team up with people. Go to your church and ask about oppertunities. If you are interested in community organization, there are so and helping there are so many things you can do, and people who need you.
Google the topics you are intrested in and local officals and ask to volunteer.
Thats how you get started, make connections, and NETWORK, network, network.
Their are go to nonforprofit.org to find out more.
or volunteeramerica
Eventually you can work for them.
I have my BA in psychology, and I got hired to work in a non for profit agency that helps people with DD (special education) get jobs in the local community, I work as a community coordinator, I do a lot. Also I found them online. It is a paying job and I make a difference. In addition to Special Education, Social work, and Case Management planning is a big one that involves directly impacting peoples lives and the community. Not so much buildings and infrastructure, or city planning. Im not sure what you are interested in.
I think you can go to indeed.com and search "non profit" in search bar, also non profit jobs.com
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
I don't understand...The problem is not where to find SJs but rather how to work effectively with those types if you are an NF so that your vision gets heard. Most of the people expressing these concerns already have a chosen field of work and just want to be more effective in it.
 

hermeticdancer

New member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
209
MBTI Type
eNFp
Enneagram
4
Just get a blackberry, and upload everything onto it.
Its all about technology
You are never going to remeber everything.
All the details, and points you all are talking about
The sensate crap
Not going to remember
That is for the computer

1. Buy blackberry or nice phone
2. Up load need to know information for on the job
(charts, calendars, information, to do lists, graphs)
3. You can be ahead of the game with your use of technology, because
SJ's are usually slow with the (am I right???) yes
4. technology and systems will help you manage the mundane details and methodical day to day tasks that you and human mind with other wise forget.
5. You can use email to communicate with SJ's, it is in writing and it wastes less paper, it is documented and fast and efficient.
6. Learn how to use powerpoint, and MS office, and word, and EXcel, and the whole office suite programs better than your SJ if you can.
7. Buy the professor teaches CD MS office 2007 its only 14.00.
GPS, computer, Blackberry, etc.-- know your software, and then manage your systems.
That is what the future is anyway, the SJ way of doing things, paper and pencil, and smelling the air, is old school.
 

hermeticdancer

New member
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
209
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eNFp
Enneagram
4
Here is another thing I am learning. SJ's make a descion very quickly and stick with it. Most of the time it is the right descion. We just have a lot of confidence in our descion making abilities. I just learned NF's have to take a long time to process everything before they make their descion. It is not because they can't make descions. It is because they are perfectionists. Maybe it is out of fear of making a mistake. I can't answer that. You NF's will have to. Anyway SJ's get frustrated with this "appearance of lack of a descion-making" and give up.

Aren't you just driven internally by a sense of wanting to get things done? Or Organized? Tasks completed?
Do you feel worthless if you are not organized?
Isn't it pretty much about the achieving a goal then moving on?
Do you like to write lists?
I am interested what is your motivation though? Just to do it? Why wake up in the morning with so much drive?

...Other than 99.9% brain chemistry?
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
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14,497
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INFJ
I don't know about the SJs you know, but ESTJs tend to be some of the most independent, learn it yourself, techie kinds of guys I've ever met. Two were IT teachers and the other voluntarily incorporated and taught huge amounts of tech into his English Language Arts consultant job.

Most people already use the internet and email, as well as powerpoint, word and Excel. You can't even get hired without those skills anymore.
 

4375

New member
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
55
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
4w3
Aren't you just driven internally by a sense of wanting to get things done? Or Organized? Tasks completed?
Do you feel worthless if you are not organized?
Isn't it pretty much about the achieving a goal then moving on?
Do you like to write lists?
I am interested what is your motivation though? Just to do it? Why wake up in the morning with so much drive?

...Other than 99.9% brain chemistry?

Wanting to get things done is what drives me, yes. Am I organized? Absolutely.

Do I feel Worthlessness if I am not organized? I never feel worthless but I will feel really frustrated then I will change my problem and get organized before I go on.

Once a goal is achieved there is no use on staying on the task. But don't forget, follow-up may be part of the goal. The goal is achieved when I tell myself it is achieved.

My motivation is to make a difference in my job, other's lives and in my own life. Goals are who I am. I have set big goal for myself in life and have achieved most of them. Achievement in my goals breed confidence.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
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So 4375, if someone wanted to present you with a new idea:

1) Who would you be most receptive to hearing it from? (Does their "rank" matter? Amount of time in the organization? Position in relation to you? The kind of work they normally do?)

2) What would most strongly convince you that it was a plan worth trying? (Particularly if it is something that hasn't been done in many places before?)

3) How would you prefer that the person approach you? Do you agree with what PeaceBaby had to say about this?
 

4375

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4w3
1) funny you should ask. I get presented with ideas at work from people with lower seniority all the time. I will give credit where credit is due. A new idea is a new idea. If it is good who cares who it is from. I have let their superiours know they really did something to impress me.

2) If it sounds good and realistic or I am conviced by the presenter that it is good or realistic. Then I will try it.

3) Just say, "Hey I have this idea. What do you think?" I will have to read what Peacebaby said and then I will comment.
 

Fidelia

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What makes you deem it good and realistic?
 

4375

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Well that would be hard to comment on with out a specific idea.
 

Fidelia

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Okay, put it this way, are there factors that would make you dismiss an idea either due to the person presenting it, or the way in which it were presented? Does it matter to have a lot of data behind it initially, or for it to be endorsed by someone else you respect?
 

4375

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I guess I would have to know if it could be done with what we have or could obtain. If it requires many different scenarios to come together but is beyond our control. Then it is not realistic.
 

Fidelia

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I will give you an example of an idea that I think could be broached in many schools.

Children who do not have confidence and a strong sense of identity are more prone to either becoming followers in an attempt to fit in, or bullies in an attempt to feel powerful. Rather than dealing with these problems reactively, it seems to me that it would make more sense to actively try and find as many areas of strengths for each child in the school as possible. This can partially be addressed through extra-curricular clubs, as well as the classroom and specialty teachers noticing what the child is good at and communicating with each other. Parents are also a valuable resource. (What interests does their child have outside of school that we could major on? What about kids whose parents cannot think of anything they are good at? How do we find those areas?) Those that do playground supervision also may have valuable ideas to contribute from what they have observed. (Does the child have people they hang around with? What kinds of things do they like to do at recess? Are they a leader or a follower? Are they drawn to certain activities?)

However, there needs to be someone who is ultimately responsible for taking on certain kids, and putting all the information together. Someone who could notice what the child enjoys (eg are they always drawing during class) or naturally do well (do they seem to be a child who likes order? Perhaps they could work in the office during recess. Are they good with hands on skills? maybe they could have the opportunity to work with a maintenance person when they get done work early. Do they naturally look out for other classmates? Perhaps we can develop mentorship skills between younger and older children.) I would argue that putting someone in a position of gathering and disseminating information about the child between home, various teachers, extra-curricular leaders, and administration would reduce negative office incidents, increase the child's academic success, and ameliorate home/school relationships.

If children do not have help in identifying these areas, often their sense of identity is built around negative behaviour or trying to be the same as a group of people. This can result in many people's time being used in resolving these conflicts, a general environment of negative peer pressure, or families choosing to move their children to another school. Rather than waiting until we see signs of danger, or the child frequently getting into trouble, we should be looking around Grade 3 or 4 for what we can help them to become involved in.

Many children are facing difficult circumstances in their lives, which have resulted in frequent trips to counsellors, difficulties in paying attention in class, restlessness or aggression, and feeling alienated and alone. A counsellor coming to visit once a week really does not have enough involvement to change the child's daily life to a larger extent than allowing them to vent some of their frustration and give them some one on one time.

By involving children in activities that boost their confidence, increase their skills and concentration, and experience success, I believe that much more is accomplished at a much lower cost to the school. The distraction of developing other skills has great power to help the child take their mind of their problems. The skills developed to achieve success in one area also usually bleed over into academic areas through having more confidence to risk trying something new, and transferring the strategies for attacking a problem in a pursuit they enjoy to a pursuit they have experienced problems with. This also makes for a more teachable child who is willing to ask questions, thereby affecting the whole classroom environment.

Therefore, my recommendations would be:
1) Funnel funding into the development of extra-curricular activities that address a wide variety of interests, rather than focussing on more counsellors, psychologists, and specialists.

2) Utilize staff members' unique abilities to get the most students involved possible. This involves the administration getting to know their staff well enough to know what they have to offer. A good side benefit is that staff members who are doing what they feel passionate about will be reenergized, rather than drained by extra involvement and will have a lot more insight into students within the student body. Students also listen more receptively to adults that they have a relationship with.

3) Hire a staff member to look out for students who especially need stronger relationships to adults within the school and who are low on confidence. Have them act as a "matchmaker" between the child and other staff members, or the child and his/her parents, as well as between the parents and staff members and the parents and the school. They will also need to be someone who can give input to the administrators about the dynamics within the school they are seeing, as well as collect data for how students are doing academically and behaviourally at school.

How would I present this to a sensor in such a way that they would be receptive to considering the possibilities? I would think succinct is better (maybe point form), briefly discussed verbally and followed up in writing, with specific examples of children referenced so there is a concrete way to visualize the results.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
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Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
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1w9
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sp/so
^ Yeah, succinct is good. Or at least, a bit more succinct than what you just typed. But on the other hand, evidence helps. If you have some statistics to back it up, your argument will be stronger.

Also, I can tell you now that, even though you've got the "human element" down, and the ideas are great, the SJs will want to know the details of the plan. How will you come up with the money, etc?

It helps to treat it like you're on a high school or college debate team. The way that those kids have to structure their arguments is VERY SJ-friendly.
 
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