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Thread: INFJ Rage?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    SS17, what part confuses you?
    It makes sense now! Yay.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    You are close in that first paragraph. The INFJ doesn't just forget about the other incidents. They are frustrated at the time, but don't want to be hasty and overreact. They are trying to explain when they finally do explode that they have done everything they can to deal with this problem on their own and that the other person has overloaded them with enough things this is no longer possible. It is not just about one seemingly tiny incident. They hate being seen as oversensitive or wimpy. They are usually able to handle quite a lot and they also don't prefer to become emotional and cry in front of other people. This is usually the point at which some well-meaning T explains that they are being oversensitive and making a big deal out of something that isn't. (Which adds gasoline to the fire, even while they are frantically shovelling dirt and beating wet towels over it internally in efforts to quell it as soon as possible). The incident they snap about is just the straw that broke the camel's back. They actually hate this feeling and are doing their best to bleed off enough emotion that they can once again be as objective as possible and return to a calm way of dealing with things. Because of not wanting to be seen as difficult or wimpy, often INFJs don't completely finish expressing all of what has been rankling, which is why the topic gets revisited several days after you thought you got it all worked out with them.
    The description of the shy laugh later in your quote is her trying desperately to get back to normal, but then thinking about the things that are still not fixed that are bothering her. She's doing her best not to be that way and the silence certainly isn't for dramatic effect.
    Okay, that totally explains everything. Now I understand that she's actually doing a lot of this to not seem overemotional, and that it's not about the last thing that made her angry--it's about previous mistakes as well. It doesn't seem confusing at all now. Wow, your description of the INFJ trying so hard to make things better again has really made me respect and appreciate INFJs even more. Thanks!

  2. #22
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Excellent! Now go out into the world and explain that to all of the ESTJs you know, please!

  3. #23
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The bad thing is that once the can of worms is opened, you may be talking about it for weeks. Because if the INFJ says everything, ev er y thing, usually it comes as a revelation to the other person, and they end up taking a couple of days to process all that themselves, bits and pieces of it will keep coming back to them, etc., and they'll want to talk it out. It's not always petty stuff, you know? Sometimes I don't say anything because I know that if I do, it will upset the other person profoundly, like shake their foundations. Ditto for slamming or throwing things. Better if I do that than say what I'm thinking, sometimes. Better for the other person.
    Ha ha ha oh man you are so right when you say EVERYTHING...

    My brother pushed me over the line a month or so ago. He has always been an emotional manipulator, especially in regards to me. He recently had twins and he became EVEN MORE self centered then ever before...even this I can deal with. What pissed me off was when he called me up while I was laying some drywall for a friend... wait let me rephrase

    I was doing a drywall job for my friend Danny who is my brothers boyfriend (I have 2 brothers, this is the other one). Anyway since our youngest brother had his twins Danny has been there every night with them to help them get established. Danny had another responsibility, to help do some carpentry work for another friend, Danny was unable to do this because he was busy helping my brother with my nieces. So I went in his place to do it for him. I figured it was a good way for me to help out, I help him, he helps my brother, we are all happy.

    Anyway, there I am with a sheet on my head going up, brother calls me. I answer it "Whats up?" Admittedly Whats up is not proper phone answering etiquette, but damnit I was literally holding a sheet up and trying to get it screwed in. He blows up and tells me

    "What the fuck did I tell you about answering the phone without any respect for me?"

    I told him to grow up that I am busy right now, and what do you need?

    (He only calls me when he needs something)

    He tells me to fuck myself, and dont come around any more.

    IE He is using my nieces as leverage against me, do as I say or you dont get to see him.

    I snapped. I told him to keep his fucking daughters and that he is a self righteous, manipulative, ignorant, arrogant little shit and I was done protecting him from himself and his mistakes.

    He then set out to recruit my family against me, instead of playing his game I wrote a 10 page letter explaining everything including many other things about my brothers and my parents and my sisters that just cleared the air.

    And when I say 10 pages, I mean I gave him both barrels with 1 trigger squeeze. My mother had told me a week later that his wife said he spent the night crying and asking "why does my brother hate me?"

    That question infuriated me more, because he truly doesnt understand what a horrible person he usually is and is capable of being.

    I havent spoken to him since the 1st week of October.

    He tried to have my mother ask me to come to his house for Thanksgiving, but I told her of course, no fucking way. I will never go over his home again. And that if he wants to have a relationship with me he is going to have to do it on my terms because I am the only one between the two of us who is mature enough not to abuse that.

    I really REALLY miss my nieces and my sister in law, but I have no choice but to stick to my guns otherwise he will see it as a victory for himself. And while I do not view things in terms of victory, he does... which is what I am dealing with. I want to have a good relationship with him, but he just wont allow me too. And to be honest if he wasnt my brother he isnt the type of person I would want to be friends with.

  4. #24
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    Oh, yes. The "List", as I call it. It's not a conscious score-keeping, though. These are just small instances that stay at the back of the mind and in time things just accumulate to the point where it boils over. I can let go of so many things but I guess the residue remains to some extent. And it's not like rubbing in someone's past mistakes to hurt them. It's more about clearing the air, but it happens to be all at once, so it will come as a surprise to people, that's for sure.
    I hate the list. Quite often, Iím not even aware itís there- slowly building up like a Jenga tower- until it gets so difficult to manage that it falls over and THATíS when I notice it. I have one friend irl whoís the same way; we call it emotional frog-in-hot-water syndrome.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    In most cases, I can solve the problem in my head by looking at things from the other person's point of view, considering surrounding circumstances and reasons for certain behaviour etc. [Ö] I think it comes from sucking things up, trying to see the situation from other sides, making huge efforts to avoid overreacting and then the dam finally bursting.
    I do this as well. It *seems* at the time that Iím able to let a lot of stuff go. But, like fidelia wrote, if itís an ongoing problem and the other person doesnít recognize/appreciate the amount of effort/reflection I consistently put forth to let go of things then a slimy residue starts to build around my attitude towards the person. I do not notice the residue until itís stifling. I am a total sensotard.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The INFJ doesn't just forget about the other incidents. They are frustrated at the time, but don't want to be hasty and overreact. They are trying to explain when they finally do explode that they have done everything they can to deal with this problem on their own and that the other person has overloaded them with enough things this is no longer possible. It is not just about one seemingly tiny incident. They hate being seen as oversensitive or wimpy. They are usually able to handle quite a lot and they also don't prefer to become emotional and cry in front of other people. This is usually the point at which some well-meaning T explains that they are being oversensitive and making a big deal out of something that isn't. (Which adds gasoline to the fire, even while they are frantically shovelling dirt and beating wet towels over it internally in efforts to quell it as soon as possible). The incident they snap about is just the straw that broke the camel's back. They actually hate this feeling and are doing their best to bleed off enough emotion that they can once again be as objective as possible and return to a calm way of dealing with things.
    Again, I strongly relate to this, ESPECIALLY the bolded statements. I loathe that moment when the Jenga towers spills and I start spewing everything on the list. I canít wait for it to be over.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Excellent! Now go out into the world and explain that to all of the ESTJs you know, please!
    Seriously. If someone would be so kind as to bring this up at their next Ďbig meetingí, that would be great.

    Weíre all individuals, no one fits perfectly into any MB type box, BUT: I have had the worst experiences with ESTJs inadvertently Ďthrowing gasoline on the fireí.

    Because:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    The bad thing is that once the can of worms is opened, you may be talking about it for weeks. [...] ...they end up taking a couple of days to process all that themselves, bits and pieces of it will keep coming back to them, etc., and they'll want to talk it out. It's not always petty stuff, you know? Sometimes I don't say anything because I know that if I do, it will upset the other person profoundly, like shake their foundations. Ditto for slamming or throwing things. Better if I do that than say what I'm thinking, sometimes. Better for the other person.
    If Iím not allowed to revisit that mangled Jenga wreckage- because the other person will get upset, annoyed or angry- then Iíll never be able to effectively get rid of Ďthe listí.

    If the person isn't really important to me, it's not a big deal to just write that person off; list gone, problem solved. But when the person IS important: I do the best I can to keep the anger and resentment out of the other person's way (I think most INFJs do). If I am made to feel bad about revisiting, that guilt tripís only going to end up on Ďthe listí.
    Last edited by Z Buck McFate; 11-23-2009 at 06:04 PM.
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  5. #25
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You understand! When they are someone you don't want to expunge from your life, yet they refuse to help shovel away the tumbled wreckage of the list, eventually there is a garbage heap so high you can no longer see each other.

  6. #26
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    ^ I HATE giving up on people who are important to me. I can go for a long time, probably far too long, on memories of how good a person has been to me; but once the list has reached it's critical limit, something inside of me just closes the door. It isn't even a conscious decision, it sort of happens on its own.

    And even then, after I close that door, sometimes it takes years for me to understand what I was angry about (only when the person was important).

    In line with something fidelia said- and I can't stress this enough- it's important to give us credit for not wanting to fly into little snits of rage in the first place. We know if affects others badly, and we probably anticipate it going away even more than the people who have to deal with us.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #27
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    we get angry, also, bc our judgment skills are often very shitty and we need a last line of defense against both the world and from ourselves.

    it takes us a lot of time to come to decisions about anything important. we may feel extremely entitled (4s, 5s), yet, at the same time, become extremely aware of the needs of others and lose ourselves in the process. which muddies our sense of right. and makes us hyper-aware that we want to take something that doesn't belong to us or make our assert our wills even if it is not in the best interest of others. this is a basic Fe conflict, and causes over-expression and over-compensation at times when we just get so fucking tired of not-knowing what is right or wrong but being upset, regardless, when we feel our needs are not being met or addressed.

    and the whole PiJe thing makes us very specific in thinking we know what is best, unless we have to find a way to understand ourselves objectively. generally i have to think of myself as an externality, imagine myself in the place of someone else seeing myself in order to get at the context better so that i can see what actually means what in a more accurate way. bc i can not just work it out interiorily, bc i have no way of balancing what i feel i need, what i SHOULD need, what makes more sense to need, vs what others need, what the world suggests is accurate, what is consistent with what life is made up of, etc.

    also, chart-the-course. and we hate being disturbed, disrupted, our privacy violated, our feathers ruffled, etc. especially the 4s and the 5s.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EnFpFer's MIL doesn't sound typical (or at least sounds immature).

    In most cases, I can solve the problem in my head by looking at things from the other person's point of view, considering surrounding circumstances and reasons for certain behaviour etc. When it has been ongoing though and the other person isn't recognizing that I've already cut them a lot of slack....
    Relate very much to the bolded piece.

    But to the OP, I think this is where I'm a bizarre INFJ. I can't even relate to the OP in terms of yelling or dredging up things in the past....I've never yelled in my life...seriously. I don't think it's possible for me to get that angry. Yes, I get annoyed and maybe sarcastic/biting in some of my comments, if I'm really irritated about something, but maybe I've never allowed things to get to the point within me where it reaches the anger/rage stage? I just don't relate to that. I think I nip all of it in the bud before it escalates, and communicate things that might be bugging me before they accumulate to the extent that I'd have to explode.
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  9. #29
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Relate very much to the bolded piece.
    I do that as well as fidelia described. I work it out in my head by exploring it from various angles, and typically find some sort of resolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    But to the OP, I think this is where I'm a bizarre INFJ. I can't even relate to the OP in terms of yelling or dredging up things in the past....I've never yelled in my life...seriously. I don't think it's possible for me to get that angry. Yes, I get annoyed and maybe sarcastic/biting in some of my comments, if I'm really irritated about something, but maybe I've never allowed things to get to the point within me where it reaches the anger/rage stage? I just don't relate to that. I think I nip all of it in the bud before it escalates, and communicate things that might be bugging me before they accumulate to the extent that I'd have to explode.
    I relate to what you have written here. The closest I've come to "rage" in my memory was a feeling of frustration that I released by breaking down kindling with the occasional growly sound. I have never yelled at someone in my recollection.

    Sometimes I wonder about anger and my relationship to it, because I tend to analyze and reason through things which limits the need for it. It's not that I never feel frustrated or disappointed, but rage? I'm not sure I have felt that. I asked my SO about my anger last night, and he said he didn't notice me feeling it that much, so I asked about passive aggression, and he said, "not at all". If there was any, I'm not conscious of it. There are a couple of emotions that can entrap me in a negative feedback loop, but anger isn't one of those.

    I do remember "incidences" that hurt my feelings and such, but these do not always build towards a climax of anger. They are used like any piece of information. Sometimes they build towards a negative picture, and then suddenly new information arrives which reinterprets all that has happened in a new light. I then see better what the person meant, how they were viewing it, and the anger will dissipate. My memory isn't a tally for increasing anger and punishment, but more often filed under "what the hell happened?". My point is that the process is not linear, but holistic.

    From my understanding, anger is a response to feeling one's rights have been violated. The greater a personal sense of entitlement over what one cannot control, the greater one's sense of anger in response to disappointment. When one let's go of this sense of entitlement, then the motivation for anger lessens.
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  10. #30
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    From my understanding, anger is a response to feeling one's rights have been violated. The greater a personal sense of entitlement over what one cannot control, the greater one's sense of anger in response to disappointment. When one let's go of this sense of entitlement, then the motivation for anger lessens.
    Is a personal sense of entitlement always an unhealthy thing? Shouldnít children feel a personal sense of entitlement- in regards to feeling loved by a parent- even though, technically, it isnít something they have control over? Or even: after several years of marriage, shouldnít someone feel entitled to some degree of honesty and loyalty from an SO (which isnít really in oneís control, either)?

    I think I can see where you were headed- that itís always important to be mindful of the things we individually feel entitled to, right? I just want to point out that- where other people and respectful, responsible behavior is concerned- there are things that we should be able to feel reasonably entitled to in life. IMO, anyway. Itís an incredibly miserable and depressing notion to think we arenít entitled, at least, to a modicum of respect and honesty from those who have promised it to us.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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