[MBTI General] Joan of Arc

[KLessard]

I am a great admirer of Joan of Arc. She is seen as the INFP archetype, but the enneagram refers to her as a Type One Reformer, which would be more INFJ. She does have a lot of the Refomer in her, I think, and some analysts see her as one of the first protestants.

What do you think? INFP or INFJ? Why?

 

[Mad Hatter]

She is seen as the INFP archetype, but the enneagram refers to her as a Type One Reformer, which would be more INFJ.

Not necessarily. A lot of INFPs happen to be Enneagram Type 4s (including yours truly) of which '1' is supposed to be the integration point - which would actually support typing ole Joan as INFP.

 

[KLessard]

Not necessarily. A lot of INFPs happen to be Enneagram Type 4s (including yours truly) of which '1' is supposed to be the integration point - which would actually support typing ole Joan as INFP.

That's true. Good point.

 

[Litvyak]

O__o

Wow. I always saw her as an ESFJ.

 

[KLessard]

O__o

Wow. I always saw her as an ESFJ.

No, Joan of Arc is traditionally seen as THE INFP archetype. Definitely NF. Always worried about the salvation of soldiers and a spiritual reformer, bluntly denouncing the inconsistance of the Medieval Catholic clergy.

 

[Elfboy]

Joan of Arc is to me the epitome of a strong INFP on a quest. the side most people see 90% of the time is a sweet, creative, dissorganized, romantic and relaxed personality that enjoys intellectual conversation (despite being dominant feeling, many of us are extremely logical. INFJs are extremely intelligent, but frankly most of the FJs I've met are extremely illogical) and has an unusual connection to animals and small children (I am 19 and almost every time I meet a little kid, they think of me as their older brother in less than a day).
However, that all changes when our values are violated. A strong INFP standing up for his beliefs can talk with extreme amounts of authority and charisma and sometimes can sound much older than they really are. When this switch is flipped, the INFP's normally relaxed, carefree nature becomes merciless and vindicative. We become the shining hero who fights against much stronger oppononent but triumphs through sheer resolve. This sounds a ton like Joan of Arc. she was only a 17 year old girl but lead armies and took numbers of forts commanded by seasoned verterans.

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that INFPs are often more "J-ish" than INFJs. for example, the greatest strength of an INFP is one of judgement while the an INFJ's greatest strength is the powerful perception of introverted intuition. INFJs also tend to be much more merciful and pacifistic, INFPs have no mercy for anything they believe to be pure evil. also, with Joan of Arc, we wouldn't have heard a lot about what she was like when she was relaxed, so this could lead some people to assume she's J

 

[Arclight]

INFJs also tend to be much more merciful and pacifistic,

You have never had an INFJ hurt and pissed off at you before I am guessing.

 

[Arclight]

O__o

Wow. I always saw her as an ESFJ.

I have heard strong arguments in support of ISFP.. But stereotypes wont allow people to believe an ISFP could lead a crusade, which is just silly of course.

The reason I would go with ISFP is her somewhat obvious use of Ni over Ne

 

[KDude]

I've heard INFP, INFJ, and ISFP too.. they all kind of make sense in some light (at least, as long as we don't bring David Keirsey into the picture).

What's funny is that Vicky Jo (from that one INFJ website) thought she might have been ESTP! Which is funny to me, because that's the complete opposite of how Vicky sees herself.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Joan of Arc is to me the epitome of a strong INFP on a quest. the side most people see 90% of the time is a sweet, creative, dissorganized, romantic and relaxed personality that enjoys intellectual conversation (despite being dominant feeling, many of us are extremely logical. INFJs are extremely intelligent, but frankly most of the FJs I've met are extremely illogical) and has an unusual connection to animals and small children (I am 19 and almost every time I meet a little kid, they think of me as their older brother in less than a day).
However, that all changes when our values are violated. A strong INFP standing up for his beliefs can talk with extreme amounts of authority and charisma and sometimes can sound much older than they really are. When this switch is flipped, the INFP's normally relaxed, carefree nature becomes merciless and vindicative. We become the shining hero who fights against much stronger opponent but triumphs through sheer resolve. This sounds a ton like Joan of Arc. she was only a 17 year old girl but lead armies and took numbers of forts commanded by seasoned verterans.

Some of the confusion comes from the fact that INFPs are often more "J-ish" than INFJs. for example, the greatest strength of an INFP is one of judgement while the an INFJ's greatest strength is the powerful perception of introverted intuition. INFJs also tend to be much more merciful and pacifistic, INFPs have no mercy for anything they believe to be pure evil. also, with Joan of Arc, we wouldn't have heard a lot about what she was like when she was relaxed, so this could lead some people to assume she's J

I agree with a lot of this, but I also agree with Arclight about INFJs having hideous tempers . However, I have noticed that tendency in them to be inconsistent. Instead of fighting for change, they just shift their perspective on an issue and take (what seems to me) the path of least resistance. INFPs are more likely to seek ways to change the status quo, not work within it. Ne is outside the box, Ni views the box as something else. The INFJ I know best is my aunt, and the minute her cause is an inconvenience, she compromises it. It comes off as very inconsistent and illogical.

I would also say that in a match of sheer passion, I truly think an INFP would win against an INFJ. Feeling grows intensively for a Fi-dom after all, theirs extensively. When you take the cap off the INFP, feeling shoots out very forcefully.

And yeah, ISFPs can get really ascetic....My ISFP step-dad can be way more hardcore about his spiritual beliefs than I am.

Joan of Arc does not strike me as someone who is "healthy". I think she was a Fi-dom with her ExTJ armor on. I say Fi over Ni because her visions seemed to be of what is important, not of the future. It's difficult to say whether Se or Ne was her perspective in pursuing these ideals.

What's funny is that Vicky Jo (from that one INFJ website) thought she might have been ESTP! Which is funny to me, because that's the complete opposite of how Vicky sees herself.

I can't stand that woman....she has such a bias against INFPs, I am not surprised she would never type anyone with a backbone as INFP. She wants to paint all INFPs as useless emo hippies. :steam:

 

[SilkRoad]

I really can't decide. Either INFP or INFJ.

My INFJ friend reminds me of Joan of Arc. Then again, this friend of mine might just be an INFP. also not quite sure. She is inspiring and driven to carry out her goals and passions. However, she also gets unbalanced at the drop of a hat and burns out completely. I am then there to pick up the pieces when she has her nervous breakdowns. It's kind of inspiring but kind of annoying too. Particularly when, as she's doing right now, she starts being paranoid and secretive and telling me there's so much I can't understand about her life. I know where it's going and I know I'm going to be one of the few who gets to bail her out when everything falls apart.

Sorry, a bit OT.

 

[Andy]

Like a lot of people with severe psychological problems, Joan of Arc is a little hard to type, especially given her residence in a different time periods. She definitely had some nasty sexual hang ups and was possibly schizophrenic as well (she heard voices in her head telling her what to do, though she claimed that they fell silent before they burnt her to death). She bearly used to eat at all, her favourite meal being bread crusts dipped in wine. Doesn't sound very filling, does it?

As far as I can tell, one of the reasons she did this was to deny her own sex. In females, a near starvation level diet causes ovulation, and hence periods, to stop. She also insisted on always wearing male clothing (which was shocking for people at the time). In fact, she continued to do so even when under trial, knowing full well that the prosecuters would use it as one more excuse to call for her death.

Given the difficulty involved, I'm not going to try and put a type to Joan of Arc, classifying her only as "very unfortunate". It's quite possible she could have been an INFP suffering in an Fi-Si loops with periods of inferior Te over activity... but it's so hard to say I'd take it as nothing more than a guess. I wont argue with anyone who thinks otherwise.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ She wore men's clothes to prevent herself from being raped, which is why she refused to give those clothes up when under trial, as she was being guarded by males guards who were threatening her with rape. I imagine that being a young woman in the male world of war, a male appearance went far for her, not just in terms of safety, but also respect. Not saying she was exactly "healthy", but still...

 

[Andy]

She wore mens cloths long before she wound up in jail, and not just on the battlefield were practicallity would have been a concern. Still... I'd agree that she wore them as a form of protection, even if I think it was born more of internal concerns than external. Like I said, though, it was a long time ago and reliable evidence is thin.

If you are stuck in a medieval dungeon surrounded by men armed with sword, axes, whips and god knows what else, I don't think your clothes would offer much protection unless they are made out of steel and have sharp blades projecting from them. A women in mans clothing was considered abnormal in those days and was more likely to provoke a reaction then prevent it. I could well imagine such men stripping her naked and raping her just to make the point that she wasn't a man, regardless of how she dressed.

 

[KDude]

I believe she was a mix of devotion and emotional instability. I'm not sure what her personal losses were, but apparently her childhood town was attacked and burned. On top of that, she grew up around war, so she would have seen the effect everywhere. No different than many disgruntled children in war torn areas.. except it's even worse than many modern war torn areas. That was a hundred year long methodical conquest of the English making the French live under their boot. By the time she was born, the French had mostly given up.

As for the voices, I'm not sure if it's necessarily schizophrenic. I don't want to get into saying her voices were real (that's a matter of belief).. I've had my own weird religious experiences, and I'm not schizophrenic. I'm not sure what they are. I'll take a middle ground approach and say that I think the subconscious can also create some of these type of fantasies.. especially in high stress. Perhaps that's all she was. That maybe her longing and general worldview had created something that convinced her that God wanted her to help. Because apparently, she would make some fairly intelligent choices on the battlefield.. although they were aggressive. And she was fairly well composed when speaking. Very few people like her (especially in her time) were as grilled as she was. And yet she had somehow managed to convince a king to make her a commander in his army... out of nowhere. That might be partly his doing, but she must have played a part in it. So I'm not convinced she was schizophrenic. I've met schizophrenics.. I hate to be rude, but I usually want to leave their company sooner or later.

 

[OrangeAppled]

She wore mens cloths long before she wound up in jail, and not just on the battlefield were practicallity would have been a concern. Still... I'd agree that she wore them as a form of protection, even if I think it was born more of internal concerns than external. Like I said, though, it was a long time ago and reliable evidence is thin.

If you are stuck in a medieval dungeon surrounded by men armed with sword, axes, whips and god knows what else, I don't think your clothes would offer much protection unless they are made out of steel and have sharp blades projecting from them. A women in mans clothing was considered abnormal in those days and was more likely to provoke a reaction then prevent it. I could well imagine such men stripping her naked and raping her just to make the point that she wasn't a man, regardless of how she dressed.

From what I read about her, it apparently worked. We're not talking physical practicality anyway...it's the psychological effect of presenting herself as a man to other men, particularly when she was leading them. A similar reason women donned "power suits" for the office in the 80s .