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  1. #51
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    If an opinion from a stranger helps, you struck me right away as an ENTP. I'm usually surrounded by ENTPs and most of your statements hit the bulls-eye for the way my ENTPs talk and comport themselves. Just for what it's worth.


    interestingly enough I bugged him about being an entp myself but he is a lot like me so I will go with the enfp. My thoughts though on why he would sound entpish are that he's a male and is possibly at times trying to fit into the male stereo type or the testosterone has just over ridden it all. OR he just knows many entps in his life. Being an enfp means you are very adaptable and mostly at the expense of yourself. It's not that you set out to be someone you are not it is actually who you are, to be accommodating to others so that you don't in turn cause conflicts
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  2. #52
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by targo View Post
    interestingly enough I bugged him about being an entp myself but he is a lot like me so I will go with the enfp. My thoughts though on why he would sound entpish are that he's a male and is possibly at times trying to fit into the male stereo type or the testosterone has just over ridden it all. OR he just knows many entps in his life. Being an enfp means you are very adaptable and mostly at the expense of yourself. It's not that you set out to be someone you are not it is actually who you are, to be accommodating to others so that you don't in turn cause conflicts
    Excellent points you make. I defer to your better judgment! I know many ENTPs that pass as ESTPs because they're around so many S-functions and usually because they're under stress. The ones that pass the most strongly for S-functions in those cases tend to have the least S to begin with? Intuition being strained and shuffled to the backseat? So I totally get what you're saying. Makes sense to me! And the male-female thing really does make a difference. I've noticed that too.

  3. #53
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    First -- I wasn't justifying that I was personally bothered as a way to 'discount the validity' of anyone's argument. If you feel that whenever someone says they are emotionally upset or bothered by something you see it is an attack on your rationality and the validity of your statement, perhaps that is the problem. Meaning your problem. Sometimes when someone says, "I'm hurt you think that" that's exactly what it means. Sure, they wish you didn't think that, but for the most part, they're just stating their emotional state and perhaps also letting you know that they are feeling vulnerable.

    For me specifically, when I said I was jumping into the fray because I was bothered by X,Y,Z, that's exactly what it meant. Just stating my motivation, and of course if I'm bothered by something it implies I do not agree with it. So if that's the 'emotional discounting' you refer to, that's always implied in any 'negative' emotional response and take it with a grain of salt.

    I just get very wary of the whole 'I just want to keep things rational' argument because personally I think that's bullshit. If you are a human being and NOT a robot then you are an emotional person and not capable of 'perfect rational computation'. By definition of being human, everything you think is subjective. You may be emotional and subjective in your own wonderfully singular way, but you are still emotional and subjective. I personally live in a world of grays and chalk up some interpersonal conflict as inevitable (we can't all see eye to eye and we to leave peaceably while still honoring our differences) and have no hard feelings. I invest a lot of time and energy in relationships and dispute resolution but I'm also one that's just as likely to walk away when necessary.

    That is why, if nothing else, I want to stress that communication is a TWO way street and heavily hinges on PERSPECTIVE. There is nothing wrong with being emotionally effusive or completely deadpan in interactions -- I have and can be both. In fact, as a trained interviewer and peer counselor, that's one of the key points drilled into you -- how to be nonreactive or externally react in a way that is conducive to makingn the other person comfortable to express themselves fully and honestly.

    But I hear this undercurrent of labelling emotionally expressive people as 'irrational' and 'selfish'. I know ostensibly this is not what you are trying to say, but that's what I'm getting. It is VERY possible to be incredibly emotional and loud and still have an effective conversation and reach a peacable resolution. I do it quite often with friends and family. So being emotional in itself is not 'wrong' or a hindrance to effective communication.

    As far as using emotional responses as an excuse or invalidator, aside from dealing with a straight-up manipulative or dysfunctional people or in a relationship dynamic which lends itself to denial (and in which case, this is NOT limited to NFs) -- from my experience, perhaps this could be chalked up to a strong NT or ST INTERPRETING emotional responses in others?

    I just remember my ISTJ friend who got PISSED whenever her E_F_ roommate started CRYING during roommate disputes. My ISTJ friend interpreted the crying as straight up manipulation and an attempt to paint said ISTJ as evil and stop any real conversation. They were all women in their mid-to-late 20s and my ISTJ friend said they were "too old and too intelligent to cry like a baby just because you don't like something". HAHAHAH. The two ended up having a huge falling out, where yes, the ExFx ended up crying and calling up mutual friends to tell them how evil my ISTJ friend was.

    I actually thought this was all kind of funny (though of course, I did not tell my ISTJ friend this). There was a third IxFx roommate who saw all this go down first hand and also interpreted the 'feelers' crying as just that, crying, and not manipulation. There was no further agenda to the crying, she was just expressing herself. However, the ISTJ and the feeler could NOT communicate effectively at all and both read A LOT into basic interactions which made it a tense household.

    So, I cannot speak to your particular situations and the relations with those presumed ENFx's in your lives, but sometimes an emotional response is just that.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post

    I just get very wary of the whole 'I just want to keep things rational' argument because personally I think that's bullshit. If you are a human being and NOT a robot then you are an emotional person and not capable of 'perfect rational computation'. By definition of being human, everything you think is subjective. You may be emotional and subjective in your own wonderfully singular way, but you are still emotional and subjective. I personally live in a world of grays and chalk up some interpersonal conflict as inevitable (we can't all see eye to eye and we to leave peaceably while still honoring our differences) and have no hard feelings. I invest a lot of time and energy in relationships and dispute resolution but I'm also one that's just as likely to walk away when necessary.
    Uh, well, you just called my personal, subjective point of view "bullshit." You're asserting that an "I want" statement is dishonest, which implies that you feel you have a better grasp of a person's motivations than they do. You're saying that emotional statements are legitimate but statements of logic (or a preference for logic) are disingenuous attempts to mask emotional repsonses. This is dismissive and it bothers me. Yes, NT's do have emotions, just as everyone else does. But your implication that "subjective and personal" equates to "not worthy of rational consideration" privileges your own perspective over ours.

    Or perhaps I should say that where you're correct is in pointing out that everyone is a combination of subjective, emotional thought processes with rational/logical thought processes that aim to understand objective reality. No one is a computational machine devoid of emotions, but equally so no one is a pure solipsist who can survive without interacting with the world outside themselves. I do very much want to keep things rational--because my dominant thought process is rational, rational discussion most effectively leads me to understanding and allows me to be at peace with the world. This is especially true for an INTP, whose emotional processes are the least developed and thus the least helpful in achieving any kind of resolution. Effusive displays of negative emotion make me uncomfortable; that's my subjective, emotional point of view. I understand that NF's don't process things the same way, which is why I make an effort to temper my logic (or at least my presentation of it) with consideration for their feelings. If the person I'm talking to truly understands that it's a "two way street," they'll be willing to make the appropriate adjustments from their end.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    But I hear this undercurrent of labelling emotionally expressive people as 'irrational' and 'selfish'. I know ostensibly this is not what you are trying to say, but that's what I'm getting. It is VERY possible to be incredibly emotional and loud and still have an effective conversation and reach a peacable resolution. I do it quite often with friends and family. So being emotional in itself is not 'wrong' or a hindrance to effective communication.
    OK, it's not "wrong," but what I'm looking for is an understanding that loud, emotional conversations are the least helpful for me (and, I'm supposing, other NT's, at least INT's) in reaching a peaceable conclusion. A dominant Feeler is most comfortable laying out their emotions for others to consider, and probably feels a bit limited if they're told that their emotions are not worthy of consideration. Conversely, a dominant Thinker is most comfortable laying out their logic for others to consider, and feels limited if the other person refuses to acknowledge how the objective reality of the situation appears to them. Personally, I tend to back out of a conversation as soon as it becomes clear that everyone's going to keep raising their voices until somebody proves by sheer volume that they've suffered the most grievous emotional wound and are therefore entitled to demand concessions from everyone else. It's not that I don't care that someone feels they've been wronged; it's just that that kind of input is the most difficult for me to process because tuning in my inferior Fe is very stressful. I have to de-emphasize emotion to counterbalance the pressure I'm feeling and relieve the stress enough to think clearly. Usually, the outward appearance of what I'm doing is me sitting (I tend to pointedly sit when everyone's on their feet gesticulating wildly) and slowly, quietly, and methodically pointing out the facts as I see them. If my counterpart(s) shows some consideration by lowering the volume a little bit and ackowledging what I've just said, I can open up and consider their emotions. If they instead choose to take my detachment as a further insult and redouble their efforts to demonstrate how much I'm hurting them, (the "heart grenade" phenomenon) I'm likely to accuse them of being irrational and selfish.

    The point being that however much my behavior may influence your emotions, I'm not responsible for your emotional state; you are. An NF (or anyone) who can't grasp this concept is a person I'm going to have difficulty getting along with in all but the most casual and superficial of interactions.

    [This was a problem in my teenage years when dealing with my strongly NF mother. We didn't bring MBTI jargon into it, being as I'd never heard of this stuff, but it makes sense now that that was a lot of what was going on. She actually had the much more irritating habit of bringing feminist politics into personal disagreements with her male children. She'd announce some edict about how we had to change our behavior to avoid upsetting her, one of us would challenge her on the facts of the situation, and she'd accuse us of being not only insensitive, but 'sexist' for wanting a rational explanation. If I responded that accusing me of oppressing her was ridiculous, given the obvious objective reality that I was on the subordinate end of the power dynamic in the parent-child relationship, she'd sob and scream at me about how hard it was living in a male-dominated society where chauvinists like me wouldn't even listen to her. Then my INTP father, who'd been quietly observing the whole time, would chime in to tell me that I should be ashamed of myself for being so callous. The end result was to make me reluctant to ever bring up any personal problem with my mother, which made us emotionally distant, a fact which naturally elicited frequent complaints of "you never talk to me; why won't you let me know what's going on in your life?" Of course, by then I knew not to tell her the real reason was my sheer terror of inadvertently saying something that she'd take issue with.]

    If I've inadvertently caused offense with any of this, my apologies, but as you said, it's a two way street.

  5. #55
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    Personally, I tend to back out of a conversation as soon as it becomes clear that everyone's going to keep raising their voices until somebody proves by sheer volume that they've suffered the most grievous emotional wound and are therefore entitled to demand concessions from everyone else.
    Ha, actually I was kinda referring to NT's getting mad and then getting angry an NF wants them to calm down. Because I don't like people yelling at me and I think it's very possible to be angry and still express yourself in a civil way. I generally try to descalate angry situations by channeling my own anger or fear in a confrontation to be as BLUNT and calm as possible. "I think this, I feel that, I disagree because, I don't think that true because, etc." and use concrete finite examples which are hard to dispute. I think maybe I turn into an NT when cornered? I dunno. But, I'll get crazy when I have to because at that point it's not about being right, it's about intimidation and I hate bullying.

    I didn' mean to say that you or that any argument claiming to be rational is bullshit. It' the the idea of 'total objectivity' being possible for a person that I think is bullshit. Because I have found from experience that generally people who purport that '100% rational objectivity' is possible is code for THEY have this ' 100% rational objectivity' and you DO NOT, meaning they are RIGHT and you are WRONG. And how can you argue with this line of reasoning? You can't. It's a nice logic grenade to stop conversation.

    I also agree that just because someone is angry or upset that does not necessarily make you wrong or that you have to stop your interaction with them. Anger is but one natural response to being confronted, questioned, and disagreed with. And that's totally fine.

    HEALTHY and MATURE people hopefully for the most part are grown and strong enough to be able to handle the less calm and pleasant emotions on the spectrum and can handle disagreement and conflict. And take things with a grain of salt. I know I can get histrionic about things, but partly I just like playing devil's advocate and grandstanding and at the end of the day, I know people are people and let things be.

    I do sympathize with your situation as you describe with your parents. I think though some parents just squash their children's inviduality and disagreements with any argument, be it rational or emotional. Why? Because they are playing their power card of being your parent and 'in charge' and do not know how to really discuss things with children and take disagreements as a challenge of authority which they can't handle.

    My parents also did this to me, but actually on the flip - saying that my emotional responses were crazy and/or made absolutely 'no sense' and would mostly ignore or scorn them. Sometimes my parents and my brother would actually gang up and MOCK ME! WHILE I was crying. Hahahaha, OMG yes family is a wonderful thing.

    All this had the same result as you! It helped keep me cold and second guess myself, leading me to think that my natural response to things was 'wrong'. And scared that people would react to me just as negatively as my family just for honestly being me.

    This is horrible! Nobody should think that they are inherently wrong. Perhaps in need of medical help or non-medical improvement but not 'wrong'. People are different, they aren't wrong.

    I don't even know what my original point was anymore, perhaps this is a problem with dysfunctional NF/NT interactions et. al.? Or the NF/NT differences come to mask the real problems running underneath relationships with people?
    Last edited by CzeCze; 11-07-2007 at 03:12 AM.

  6. #56
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    I have have a feeling the whole self-righteous thing was directed at me.

    You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was that I've been told that I am FAIR (in that I consider everyone in a global perspective when making decisions on what I believe to be the correct thing to do). I did not mean that I make good decisions or that I am ALWAYS fair, just that I consider morals, beliefs, feelings, etc. other than my own. That doesn't mean my decision is the right one, just that I try to please as many people as possible.

    I was not implying that ALL ENFPs have this trait. I thought of asking if other ENFPs rationalized this way because pleasing people seems to be a dominant factor in our personalities. I wanted to see if people thought their morals on right and wrong coincided with the majority or was a blend of everything (which my morals seem to be based off of).

    Yes, I based this question on my own opinion of my personality (which is based on others' statements about me and my own observations to an extent). I didn't mean for it to come out sounding like fact.

    Disclaimer: In no way am I trying to say that my opinion is the one and only one that everyone should follow.

  7. #57
    Senior Member autumn's Avatar
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    Okay, wowee! What a discussion! I don't have time for a full reply right now, but I have been following the thread, and as soon as I get the chance I would like to post my own response and some quotes from other posters that I found particularly helpful.

  8. #58
    Senior Member niffer's Avatar
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    Lol you guys...the more we defend ourselves the more self-righteous we are starting to sound. I am so disappointed haha.
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    if you like my avatar, it's because i took it myself! : D

  9. #59
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    Okay this whole self-righteousness is starting to frustrate me. I am, in no way, saying that my opinion is any better because I try to please everyone and strive to be fair. I don't impose my opinions on others because (irony of ironies) in my opinion that's not fair to them. I do stress others' feelings when I have an argument with someone on any certain topic, but I don't belittle their opinion.

    I thought these forums were a safe place to communicate and exchange ideas without facing hostility, but I'm getting the impression that that's not the case.

  10. #60
    ~*taaa raaa raaa boom*~ targobelle's Avatar
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    I don't think you are receiving hostility rather an opinion that is different than yours

    And Brazz unless you are 2 people I don't see anything that is directed specifically at you....
    ~t ...in need of hugs please...
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