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  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Having an ENFP brother I know only too well what's being talked about here. But I wonder... is it perhaps somewhat harder for ENFP men than women, in some ways? I mean, if women feel insecure and paranoid, or if they feel they want reassurance or whatever, it seems a lot easier for them to get it, and to not look bad for wanting it, than for men, who are in this society supposed to just 'man up' and keep it within?

    I know my brother has this tendency, but he'll deny it to the last - it's as though there's such pressure on males to be rational, independent, self-contained and level-headed, and generally T-type, that those who put importance in Feeling might tend to find that they have to hide it, or pretend they don't.

    And this makes it all the harder to address, both for them and others.
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  2. #22
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Having an ENFP brother I know only too well what's being talked about here. But I wonder... is it perhaps somewhat harder for ENFP men than women, in some ways? I mean, if women feel insecure and paranoid, or if they feel they want reassurance or whatever, it seems a lot easier for them to get it, and to not look bad for wanting it, than for men, who are in this society supposed to just 'man up' and keep it within?

    I know my brother has this tendency, but he'll deny it to the last - it's as though there's such pressure on males to be rational, independent, self-contained and level-headed, and generally T-type, that those who put importance in Feeling might tend to find that they have to hide it, or pretend they don't.

    And this makes it all the harder to address, both for them and others.
    No fucking kidding! Tell me my feelings don't fucking matter then tell me to be open? Fuck you!!! This was not to you Sub, but society in general.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  3. #23
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I've even had the discussion about it, where people tell me how well-liked I am, and while intellectually I follow it, emotionally, it's like ? Because the heartstrings aren't up to speed with the head knowledge. I usually "feel" like more of a pest or someone who overstays their welcome, and not popular or well-liked.]
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    Thing is, I know they're (well, she is) smart enough to understand how this works, but it's the perfect defense mechanism to insulate against the repercussions of your own misbehavior. I end up tolerating shit that to me is obviously inappropriate, sometimes extremely so.

    Given that Fe is my immature "shadow" function, being ignored, shrugged off, or deliberately misled just tears me up inside, and I can explain clearly why people shouldn't treat each other like that, (good intentions or not) but I just swallow it until it festers and grows to unhealthy intensity. If you're doing this intentionally, or even if you're aware of it, from my perspective it's a form of manipulation. It created mistrust and makes me want to keep somebody at arm's length even if I otherwise like them as a person.

    Relationships with STs and NT's, and even some FJ's are easy for me because we all know we can deal with problems by just bringing up the issue and systematically laying out our respective cases. That ENFP insecurity thing just throws up a wall, and I have to compensate by not giving them the chance to hurt me even a little if I can't comfortably bring a problem to their attention. So it's not that I don't like you, it's that I have to keep my guard up further into the relationship than I would with another type.
    I think what both of you are describing is more inferior Fe than anything else. And Fe reaction to Fi at that. I have the same reactions when I want to tell my INFP friends when I want to address some of my concerns about what's going on between us.

    Fe isn't just about being nice and polite. Since Fe more than anything wants harmony its more sensitive to environmental emotional fluxes. You can't have harmony if you're completely oblivious to the way people act towards you, so Fe is always scanning for any blips on the radar. Even ETPs aren't oblivious to Fe when they're flouting appropriate social conduct (or being perfect angels ). When ITPs want to engage their Fe, like Roger Mexico said, they're less sure of how to go about it, they're sensitive to the effects of their behavior on the environment and its effects on them (even if they can't explain it), and they also "know" what effects they should be having. I don't buy ITPs don't care about what others think about them. They care and when they feel ostracized they pretend like they don't. If Fe is anywhere in your conscious cognitive functions, you're sensitive to this.

    Fi is less attuned to these environmental fluxes because Fi is about monitoring and regulating its emotional state. It's hard to take your emotional temperature and the temperature of others. This could be another reason why ENFPs aren't sure what other people think about them. They're extroverts so they move towards the object (people in this case) but their Fi wants to move inward. ENFPs are visible but the way people react to them isn't what they expected and this could be because they know how they feel internally but they're not communicating this externally. Does this make sense?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I think what both of you are describing is more inferior Fe than anything else. And Fe reaction to Fi at that. I have the same reactions when I want to tell my INFP friends when I want to address some of my concerns about what's going on between us.

    Fe isn't just about being nice and polite. Since Fe more than anything wants harmony its more sensitive to environmental emotional fluxes. You can't have harmony if you're completely oblivious to the way people act towards you, so Fe is always scanning for any blips on the radar. Even ETPs aren't oblivious to Fe when they're flouting appropriate social conduct (or being perfect angels ). When ITPs want to engage their Fe, like Roger Mexico said, they're less sure of how to go about it, they're sensitive to the effects of their behavior on the environment and its effects on them (even if they can't explain it), and they also "know" what effects they should be having. I don't buy ITPs don't care about what others think about them. They care and when they feel ostracized they pretend like they don't. If Fe is anywhere in your conscious cognitive functions, you're sensitive to this.

    Fi is less attuned to these environmental fluxes because Fi is about monitoring and regulating its emotional state. It's hard to take your emotional temperature and the temperature of others. This could be another reason why ENFPs aren't sure what other people think about them. They're extroverts so they move towards the object (people in this case) but their Fi wants to move inward. ENFPs are visible but the way people react to them isn't what they expected and this could be because they know how they feel internally but they're not communicating this externally. Does this make sense?
    It makes sense, but I was trying to address the issue of ENFP's being perceived as manipulative. The combination of spontaneity/impulsiveness with emotional negation of logically founded criticism makes for a personality you might like to have around but find difficult to have significant relationships with where reliability becomes a factor.

    I'm a sucker for ENFP women--that fixation on me when I'm the primary component of their social environment makes me want to open up and bond--but it ends up in a love/hate thing once I see them treating [I]everybody[I] like that, and I can't explain my reservations to them for fear of an emotional overreaction, so I back away again and harbor unexpressed resentment. Yes, it's something I should--and do--work to mature beyond, but it's frustrating when I've got one who hasn't grown into an understanding of her own contributions to the dynamic.

  5. #25
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    Just as a general supplement to everything else said thus far, it's probably worth quoting from the experts.

    For example, NFs as a group are sometimes known for a certain negativity. Here's a quote from Keirsey's book, "Please Understand Me" on NFs:

    NFs, young or old, male or female, cannot shake off their intuitive understanding that existence is bittersweet, with defeat the other side of triumph--that, in the midst of happiness, sadness but awaits its turn.
    With respect to ENFPs in particular, Keirsey says the following:

    [...] ENFPs have outstanding intuitive powers and often find themselves trying to read what is going on inside of others, interpreting events in terms of another's hidden motives, and giving special meaning to words or actions. While this interpretation can be accurate, it can also be negative, sometimes inaccurately negative, and may introduce an unnecessarily toxic element into the relationship. For instance, [ENFPs] tend to attribute more power to authority figures than is there, and to give over to these figures an ability to see through them--a power of insight which is usually not there. In this way they can make serious mistakes in judgment, mistakes which derive from their tendency to project their own attributes onto others, and to focus on data which confirm their own biases. [...]
    I should note that Keirsey goes on to strike a more positive note immediately afterwards: "Despite the occasional misinterpretation, [ENFPs] are good with people and make extensive use of their interpersonal powers... [etc.]"

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Mexico View Post
    It makes sense, but I was trying to address the issue of ENFP's being perceived as manipulative. The combination of spontaneity/impulsiveness with emotional negation of logically founded criticism makes for a personality you might like to have around but find difficult to have significant relationships with where reliability becomes a factor.

    I'm a sucker for ENFP women--that fixation on me when I'm the primary component of their social environment makes me want to open up and bond--but it ends up in a love/hate thing once I see them treating [I]everybody[I] like that, and I can't explain my reservations to them for fear of an emotional overreaction, so I back away again and harbor unexpressed resentment. Yes, it's something I should--and do--work to mature beyond, but it's frustrating when I've got one who hasn't grown into an understanding of her own contributions to the dynamic.
    OK. When I said ENFPs use heart grenades (which any feeling type can do), I meant using a valid vulnerability (hurt feelings) unethically against others as a way to keep yourself comfortable. Actually I'll use something Santtu said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Santtu View Post
    -so tender as to not elicit criticism upon them
    We tend to get so caught up in type descriptions, as if every person is an exemplar of that particular type. This goes for any type so I'm not saying this is something only ENFPs do. The reason why I quoted Santtu is because he mentions a very important point. We all know at least one person that everyone likes and very few people have anything bad to say against them. IRL, I'm one of those people. But the scary thing about them is you always wonder how this person manages to have everyone like them. Sometimes I'm suspicious of people like that, I wonder if they're genuine or if I'm getting duped. I personally waiver between straddling the fence/keeping the peace or letting the truth be known even if it means I'm going to be disliked.

    When I read the hate an ENFP thread I wondered how much constructive criticism can be given when ENFPs are saying, "don't hurt my feelings because I want everyone to love me" It strangles people in a way, puts them in bondage so that you're never able to be a plain dealer and everything gets hushed. If this is what you're saying, I get it. But I'm just trying to figure out what an ENFP spin to this looks like because different feeling types will have a variation of this same concept.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    No fucking kidding! Tell me my feelings don't fucking matter then tell me to be open? Fuck you!!!
    The ODEFKCUD* speaks!



    *Original Dark Evil Frosty Kitty of Certain and Unavoidable Doom

  8. #28
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    The ODEFKCUD* speaks!



    *Original Dark Evil Frosty Kitty of Certain and Unavoidable Doom
    Eh, I know it sounds immature, but it is definitely how I feel about that subject...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #29
    Senior Member Roger Mexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    When I read the hate an ENFP thread I wondered how much constructive criticism can be given when ENFPs are saying, "don't hurt my feelings because I want everyone to love me" It strangles people in a way, puts them in bondage so that you're never able to be a plain dealer and everything gets hushed. If this is what you're saying, I get it. But I'm just trying to figure out what an ENFP spin to this looks like because different feeling types will have a variation of this same concept.

    Basically you've got it. I don't know what an ENFP would say to that, but the behavior I've seen in person is a rather deft ducking of issues/changing of subject/ avoidance of the other person until you signal that you'd feel like the asshole for even bringing it up. FJ's in my experience will anticipate the criticism and prepare a response or an apology, but I confess my sample size there is pretty small. The whole retreat/avoidance thing from FP's is what gets to me.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    Eh, I know it sounds immature, but it is definitely how I feel about that subject...
    Not immature. Just out of line with the warm fuzzy image of your avatar and sig.

    It just tickled my fancy. We're posting in a thread about whether ENFPs are manipulative sympathy-mongers, and all of a sudden a ball-of-fur-kitten appears in the thread and shouts "Fuck the world!!!" :steam:

    Oh well, I'm derailing the thread. I'll stop here.

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