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  1. #11
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I don't really have a problem with the categories, but I don't think they're strictly INFJ - so it's good in the title you also include NF's in general. [But actually I wouldn't even say it's restricted to NF's either - there are many unrealistic non-NF's out there too]

    I do think there are those who are so caught up in their ideals, and severed from the real world as it actually exists right now, such that their ideals can't really be used in a constructive way because they're unable to bridge their ideal world to the actual world. Now I'm all for holding views that are your own and that you believe very much in, even if the views would oppose how people/the world actually operate (and I think that's how many of us NF's are anyway), but the views are going to stay completely in your own mind - you won't be able to make any difference whatsoever - if you aren't able to communicate those views, or try to change people, in a constructive way, given how people/the world actually is.l Hmm, I'm not being clear. Basically, it's fine to have a message, but if you can't translate that message and make it somehow applicable to the world as it is right now, while accounting for the fact that there are a multitude of equally [perhaps] valid perspectives out there, with a variety of personalities whose nature differs quite a lot from yours, nothing is going to change. Doesn't mean that's a 'good' thing, necessarily, but I think that's just how it is.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #12

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    Time and time again, unrealistic idealists who've been labelled anything and everything from lunatics to heretics have gone on to change the world. Most of what we take for granted today was considered unrealistic in the past. Remember that.

  3. #13
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    There already is a label for realists and idealists, it's called S and N.
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  4. #14
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Have any of you ever read the play "Enemy of the people" by Henrik Ibsen?

    Dr. Stockmann = false idealist. He is so intent on telling the "truth" or at least 1 version of the truth that he wold prefer to isolate his family form society, and destroy his towns only source of income thus dooming all the people there to economic destruction.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    There already is a label for realists and idealists, it's called S and N.
    Please! Not that sort of thing again, even if it was meant as a joke!

    Why do S and N, realists/idealists, whatever you want to call it, have to be opposed? They are both part of the one unity of existence we all occupy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    The idea of idealism contradicts with rationality, it is more tied with a high sense of morals and extreme emotions. Idealism by nature is impractical.
    I disagree with this. Idealism is inherently rational, and by rational I mean it makes sense and is the most healthy way to be (when achieved). If this is not the case, there is an error in the ideal being proposed. If the idealist has a “high sense of morals” then s/he has to acknowledge his responsibility to work toward effecting real, practical change in the world, step by step. It's not enough to enjoy the dream and lament about how stupid the ignorant masses are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebe View Post
    What exactly is naive idealism? Was Gandhi naively idealistic to think he could change the political power of his country without violence?
    Ghandi was an idealist but also an ultimate realist and strategist. He had the non-violent ideal but it was also appropriate for the context of occupied India. Many people died in this non-violent movement but even more would have died if they had tried to form a militant movement and fight fire with fire against the British who had the technological advantage with their firearms. However, if violence in a certain case is the most appropriate response, he acknowledged that violence was then necessary: “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”

    He also didn't look down on people who couldn't live his ideal and acknowledged the reality that every person's heart is in a different stage of development. This did not contradict his ideal:

    “If non-violence does not appeal to your heart, you should discard it.”

    “No doubt the non-violent way is always the best, but where that does not come naturally the violent way is both necessary and honourable. Inaction here is rank cowardice and unmanly. It must be shunned at all cost.”

    (Taken from Ganhdi, Non-Violence in Peace and War)

  6. #16
    Head Pigeon Mad Hatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I want to further classify INFJs and possibly all NFs.
    Have fun.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Gerbah,

    "I disagree with this. Idealism is inherently rational, and by rational I mean it makes sense and is the most healthy way to be (when achieved). If this is not the case, there is an error in the ideal being proposed. If the idealist has a “high sense of morals” then s/he has to acknowledge his responsibility to work toward effecting real, practical change in the world, step by step. It's not enough to enjoy the dream and lament about how stupid the ignorant masses are."

    If Idealism is rational, we wouldn't be Idealists, we would also very simply be Rationals. I understand the point you're trying to make and I agree with that, just not how you have categorized so simply between false and true idealists.

    A false idealist can mature to take action and develop efficient strategies as they come to have more knowledge and experience. Just as a true idealist can go backwards and lose faith in their humanitarian mission and hide from action for a while. No one wants to be a false idealist. I believe the ones who don't take action are either not confident enough in their abilities or do not have enough resources. Some people are just naturally more take-charge while others need time to figure out every angle.

    I acknowledge the importance of taking action and not just ranting, but I believe these two categories are much too simplistic. And both INFJs and INFPs are very, very complex types.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Ok, if that is how you see it. I just personally don't see any conflict on a holistic level between being idealistic and being rational, even taking the complexity of each individually into account. Which is why I don't see what the importance is of the exclusivity of the label of Idealist and why people who have a connection to reality are automatically blinded by that and cannot be Idealists. I also don't see what extreme emotions have to do with the purity or strength of a person's ideal.

    It's just that I have had the experience of being judged by people who have a certain style in the way they express their frustration and emotions about why things aren't better and who seem to equate their emotionality with how dearly they hold an ideal and if I'm not expressing myself in the same way as them then I'm inferior and not on the level of their dedication or intelligence. I just saw something of that kind of thing in this whole discussion.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by visaisahero View Post
    Time and time again, unrealistic idealists who've been labelled anything and everything from lunatics to heretics have gone on to change the world. Most of what we take for granted today was considered unrealistic in the past. Remember that.
    I'm agreeing with this.
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