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  1. #1
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Unhappy Forgive me (loving ideals instead of people) - For all types

    Forgive me for seeing and loving ideals in people and not the people themselves...

    I am seeing in some posts that people who have been loved and admired by NFs have come to realize they weren't loved for who and what they were but for the ideals NFs thought they had found in them.

    I am guilty and repentant.

    I don't want to justify myself and have no interest in doing so, but if you are interested in knowing what this is all about...

    I don't know if all NFs feel the same about this, so I'll use the I instead of we.

    I am very sensitive about evil within myself (and a Christian on the top of that, so I have very clear convictions about sin). I aspire to holiness and goodness and always seeking to better myself so I can be truly helpful and truthful in my work and relationships. When I meet people who appear to have reached a certain level of holiness or simplicity, or humility that I clearly haven't reached, I become VERY admirative and respectful of them. I want to learn from them and will try to spend as much time as I can watching them and speaking with them. I do love them as people, but when I begin finding faults in them as well as goodness, I feel very disappointed, and I start thinking I have to find another role model.
    I've had great inner struggles about this, and in his patience and mercy, God has taught me to be gracious and to love these people as they were with their qualities and weaknesses, as he loves us (sorry atheists, laugh at me if you will).
    What happens here, is that my love for them has been so intense at the time I admired them as ideal human beings, that I can't help loving them still and will start being more objective in appreciating them for who they are. This is where true love begins, and I know it.

    But then again, if any of you have ever been loved and admired by an NF in this idealistic way, this is great honour. The Idealist is seeing something wonderful and universal in you. I can't speak for other NFs, but it isn't just the ideals I love in you, I love you as a human being as well, and hope I will be better at this as I grow in maturity.

    A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Forgive me for seeing and loving ideals in people and not the people themselves...

    I am seeing in some posts that people who have been loved and admired by NFs have come to realize they weren't loved for who and what they were but for the ideals NFs thought they had found in them.

    I am guilty and repentant.

    I don't want to justify myself and have no interest in doing so, but if you are interested in knowing what this is all about...

    I don't know if all NFs feel the same about this, so I'll use the I instead of we.

    I am very sensitive about evil within myself (and a Christian on the top of that, so I have very clear convictions about sin). I aspire to holiness and goodness and always seeking to better myself so I can be truly helpful and truthful in my work and relationships. When I meet people who appear to have reached a certain level of holiness or simplicity, or humility that I clearly haven't reached, I become VERY admirative and respectful of them. I want to learn from them and will try to spend as much time as I can watching them and speaking with them. I do love them as people, but when I begin finding faults in them as well as goodness, I feel very disappointed, and I start thinking I have to find another role model.
    I've had great inner struggles about this, and in his patience and mercy, God has taught me to be gracious and to love these people as they were with their qualities and weaknesses, as he loves us (sorry atheists, laugh at me if you will).
    What happens here, is that my love for them has been so intense at the time I admired them as ideal human beings, that I can't help loving them still and will start being more objective in appreciating them for who they are. This is where true love begins, and I know it.

    But then again, if any of you have ever been loved and admired by an NF in this idealistic way, this is great honour. The Idealist is seeing something wonderful and universal in you. I can't speak for other NFs, but it isn't just the ideals I love in you, I love you as a human being as well, and hope I will be better at this as I grow in maturity.

    A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?
    Perhaps there are reasons people have not become Diamonds,regardless of potential . Perhaps they have hit a wall within themselves...
    This kind of growth can only come from within not from someone else..
    If an INFJ has ideals about this person and starts to push the person in that direction they will obviously be rubbing a persons raw spots in the process.. this can be a slippery slope that will often backfire with those not ready or willing to face their potential..it can feel manipulative..

    Also INFJ's have too much idealization of themselves perhaps.. and they see themselves as a savior of sorts..

    When both ideals start to crumble in the face of reality.. The results are shattering for both parties..

    OH I might add.. You have no need to apologize.. We are who we are..

  3. #3
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    Perhaps there are reasons people have not become Diamonds,regardless of potential . Perhaps they have hit a wall within themselves...
    This kind of growth can only come from within not from someone else..
    If an INFJ has ideals about this person and starts to push the person in that direction they will obviously be rubbing a persons raw spots in the process.. this can be a slippery slope that will often backfire with those not ready or willing to face their potential..it can feel manipulative..

    Also INFJ's have too much idealization of themselves perhaps.. and they see themselves as a savior of sorts..

    When both ideals start to crumble in the face of reality.. The results are shattering for both parties..

    I have realized that when I start to let go and accept people as they are, this is the moment they start to open up and be cooperative.
    I don't see myself as a saviour, oh dear, no. But being a counselor, it is my role as a human to help people reach their full potential. In my experience, praying for them and just listening is often the best thing to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I have realized that when I start to let go and accept people as they are, this is the moment they start to open up and be cooperative.
    I don't see myself as a saviour, oh dear, no. But being a counselor, it is my role as a human to help people reach their full potential. In my experience, praying for them and just listening is often the best thing to do.
    Yes.. acceptance breeds acceptance.. You are the 1st INFJ I have ever seen admit this..(I think)
    That sometimes it has to start with you.. or at least meet half way..
    You are responsible for your interactions with people too..Their feelings thoughts and perceptions have as much value as yours.. even if in reality they don't..

    I added to my last post.. that you have no need to apologize for this..
    Ultimately it is a noble gesture to want to love unconditionally..
    But it takes an open heart and mind on both sides..and a healthy dose of reality

  5. #5
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?
    Tie type 4 shame of self in with this idealization of the other and it's quite a cold soup of dissapointment. I struggle with this issue, but have not yet come up with the answer. Very lately, I have gone through a process of trying to learn not to idealize someone and see them just as they are. I've been trying this with a new group of people I am working with, and it seems to be working so far. What I am finding is that as I learn not to idealize others, it makes it easier for me to not idealize myself. Type 4 shame rears its ugly head when we idealize ourselves and then do not live up to those ideals.

    Here is a quote I made up many years ago, that's related to this idea of idealization:
    "Because we live so small, we must dream so big."

    I think we do need to dream big, but have realistic expectations for self and others.
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  6. #6
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    Yes.. acceptance breeds acceptance.. You are the 1st INFJ I have ever seen admit this..(I think)
    That sometimes it has to start with you.. or at least meet half way..
    You are responsible for your interactions with people too..Their feelings thoughts and perceptions have as much value as yours.. even if in reality they don't..

    I added to my last post.. that you have no need to apologize for this..
    Ultimately it is a noble gesture to want to love unconditionally..
    But it takes an open heart and mind on both sides..and a healthy dose of reality

    I have been raised by an ESTJ mother (practically the opposite of me). I struggled for 25 years in this relationship. MBTI has helped me understand her priorities, and I began cooperating and taking her priorities into account and acting accordingly. We are reconciled now, because that incited her to do her part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I have been raised by an ESTJ mother (practically the opposite of me). I struggled for 25 years in this relationship. MBTI has helped me understand her priorities, and I began cooperating and taking her priorities into account and acting accordingly. We are reconciled now, because that incited her to do her part.
    Then you are well on your way to being that diamond yourself..

  8. #8
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I've kind of gone in the opposite direction.

    I tend to love ideals INSTEAD of people, and dismiss people as not being good enough to suit my ideals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I've kind of gone in the opposite direction.

    I tend to love ideals INSTEAD of people, and dismiss people as not being good enough to suit my ideals.
    Are you lonely?

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    Are you lonely?
    A little, sometimes.

    But I'm so lost in my mind that half the time I'm not even aware of enough of myself to be aware that I feel lonely.

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