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  1. #61
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    There is a site called LiveJournal.com where you can make private or "friends only" journal entries. I have a Live Journal. It's very helpful if you just need to vent, or don't want people to offer their opinions on what you've posted. Everyone needs a space to vent. I just don't think Type C is the most secure place for it.
    I felt you two were just seeing this whole post as self-centered. I do know there is a lot of selfishness in loving ideals instead of people, and that is why I was repenting. I do not reject them after finding out they are flawed, this is where I start making a true effort to love them as they are. I have never just "rejected" anyone in that way, and that's the truth.
    Yes, I do need to clean-up inside of myself, but ultimately, I do this in order to be more effective and useful in society. I start to get really annoyed with myself if I stay in the P mode for too long and find myself contemplating my emotional needs and all.
    I was discussing this with my ENFP friend the other day, and she didn't really understand this. It is a priority for her to contemplate within herself for days and all. I have also seen such comments here from INFPs. I feel useless and impatient if I see myself doing this for too long.


    Although I will say that I have met NFPs, that after contemplating and being respected in that need did amazing things for society, one of my INFP friends going to serve as a nurse in Africa and the Great North. I admire them very much.

    I don't like being told again and again that I'm selfish and self-centered while I was repenting about it in the first place.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I felt you two were just seeing this whole post as self-centered. I do know there is a lot of selfishness in loving ideals instead of people, and that is why I was repenting. I do not reject them after finding out they are flawed, this is where I start making a true effort to love them as they are. I have never just "rejected" anyone in that way, and that's the truth.
    Yes, I do need to clean-up inside of myself, but ultimately, I do this in order to be more effective and useful in society. I start to get really annoyed with myself if I stay in the P mode for too long and find myself contemplating my emotional needs and all.
    I was discussing this with my ENFP friend the other day, and she didn't really understand this. It is a priority for her to contemplate within herself for days and all. I have also seen such comments here from INFPs. I feel useless and impatient if I see myself doing this for too long.


    Although I will say that I have met NFPs, that after contemplating and being respected in that need did amazing things for society, one of my INFP friends going to serve as a nurse in Africa and the Great North. I admire them very much.

    I don't like being told again and again that I'm selfish and self-centered while I was repenting about it in the first place.
    Ok, that's understandable. My point also was that too much self-hatred, or putting harsh judgement on yourself, can cause you idealize other people or judge them too harshly. Like, if you can't be happy with yourself then no one else will ever live up to your standards either. I was actually relating to you because it's something I went through, too. I just feel like you're putting too much pressure on yourself to be "purified" and if you do that to yourself, you may also be too strict with your standards of other people.

    I am a Christian, and in my experience with some religious people, the more self-hatred they have (o I'll never be good enough, I must purge myself) the less accepting they are of other people, too. Like they aren't good enough and neither is anyone else.

    My approach to Christianity is summed up in Jesus saying, "Love others as you love yourself." So I must accept myself - flaws and sins - in order to be more forgiving of others, too. I accept that we're all sinners and will be until the end. Accepting my own weaknesses allows me to be more forgiving of others, sometimes - not always, I'm still human.

    That's part of what I'm trying to communicate here. I see a lot of self-hatred in your posts and that may contribute to why you are putting people on a pedestal only to watch them fall. I thought Peace Baby was saying something similar in a different way.

    I'm sorry if I made you feel attacked in any way. It's just that sometimes getting to the root of an issue isn't always what people want to hear, even though it might actually be the thing that helps them in the long run. I sincerely was trying to be helpful, and the only reason I pointed out your selfishness in my last post is because you started coming on with some Holier Than Thou attitude about NFJs being more "people-focused" or something. That simply isn't true. Many great humanitarians have been NFPs, and not all NFJs are selfless martyrs. To have that sort of prejudice is faulty, self-congratulatory thinking. So, yeah, sorry if I hurt your feelings.

  3. #63
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Thank you. I just don't know how to appreciate myself, I am ashamed all the time.
    I am very demanding with myself, but not with others in general.

    The only people I am demanding with would be my role models (those I idealize) and the people that inspire me, because I do more than my best in my relationships with them. If they hurt me, I simply can't take it, it hurts so bad. I'm still hurting about such a situation right now. If you could have a word of prayer for me that would be very appreciated...
    The thing is also that I fear and respect these role models and simply can't find the guts to really express my feelings after they hurt me. I don't really have the feeling PeaceBaby was talking about when she said:

    "So when other people are less than perfect we simultaneously get the thrill of their imperfection as an ego boost to ourselves."

    No, it just breaks me to pieces. I love those people, I wish I could have a healthy friendship with them and I'm just hurt. I don't want to despise them or reject them! The thing that disappoints me is not so much that they are human and flawed, but that they can be hurtful.

    But then again, I'm NF, and I need inspiration to do something with my life. These people provide inspiration and I feel like I can't go on without them.

  4. #64
    Senor Membrane
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    If they hurt me, I simply can't take it, it hurts so bad. I'm still hurting about such a situation right now.

    The thing is also that I fear and respect these role models and simply can't find the guts to really express my feelings after they hurt me.

    I wish I could have a healthy friendship with them and I'm just hurt. I don't want to despise them or reject them! The thing that disappoints me is not so much that they are human and flawed, but that they can be hurtful.

    But then again, I'm NF, and I need inspiration to do something with my life. These people provide inspiration and I feel like I can't go on without them.
    Let me suggest something. (sorry, if it has been mentioned already, but I just read this last post and it hit me, the gloomy feeling I had, I think I know now what it was) Try thinking about your role models as equals to you. Don't think they are any better. You don't know this in reality. You know only the side of them that is visible to you. Think of them as normal people, who do good things (as well as bad things, maybe, but we don't need to especially focus on that).

    You cannot have a healthy relationship with anyone you don't feel equal to. It's easy to say and hard to do, but you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. And you know what, I have had a friend who in some way took me as a role model, and while I didn't break the illusion, I ended up hurting her anyway. Why? Because it was so exhausting! It is hell trying to act in certain way just to not let the other person down. So, I slowly disappeared from her life, I had no choice, I didn't enjoy her company anymore. Consider this. I can't say for sure that you are hurt because of your idolising, but it might be just that.

    I might also add that I have been on the other side. I have idolised someone. That also ended up badly. Focus on yourself and don't be sorry for being you. If you need a hero, be it yourself. Here's a question you might want to ask yourself, over and over again until you feel better: Is there any reason for me to believe that I am not as good a person as the next one?

  5. #65
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Let me suggest something. Try thinking about your role models as equals to you. Don't think they are any better. You don't know this in reality. You know only the side of them that is visible to you. Think of them as normal people
    Yes, I'm trying hard at this. I find it very difficult with the role models who inspire me in the present time. The ones who have left their mark and are standing in the past, I am able to see more realistically.

  6. #66
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Nah, I see it all now...

    You two have been sticking NFP motivations on my NFJ forehead, and that just insulted me to the core.
    Using the NFP / NFJ distinction is inadequate here.

    A critique that "hurts" us does so sometimes because it strikes closer to home than we are willing to admit or realize. Think about why my comments have "insulted" you. After all, those are pretty strong words you are using to say how they make you react. It would be beneficial to dig deeper into that feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Why? NFPs are self-focused and always busy putting order inside of themselves. NFJs are more people-focused and society-focused ...
    Sigh, perpetuation of the "NFP's are only focussed on themselves blah blah blah" stereotype - lean on that (if you must) to prop up and rationalize your comments. But as marmalade says, NFP's can be some of the most outwardly-serving people around. So think about why these comments make you angry, don't just fluff them off with MBTI generalizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    ...and PeaceBaby saying this reflection about loving ideals or people was all about myself was basically saying I was really just self-focused, while being selfless is what I aspire to.
    Being self-focussed and selfish are not the same thing. Plus I was trying to use an analogy with you, about your ideals being a mirror with which you view, judge and critique not only other people but yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    NFJs are not necessarily more people-focused or society focused than NFPs. That's an untrue assumption. NFJs are just more likely to build their value system on the current cultural climate because of Fe. Fe is more likely to adapt to social convention. That does not equal being more people-focused or more society-focused, necessarily. NFPs actually usually care a great deal about society and people, though our value systems are more individualistic.

    Idealizing other people and then rejecting them for being human isn't selfless. It's completely selfish. It's like haviing a crush on someone. You just don't like being told that you're being selfish. Fe can be selfish just as easily as Fi.
    Very well said.

    Some extra thoughts: I was thinking about this post today. I too tend to idealize people, so I'm not just throwing some random commentary on you that I haven't experienced. I especially idealize people in positions of authority (especially spiritual authority) and hold them to very high standards indeed, which they generally fail to fulfil I might add, and I can be extremely critical as a result. This is when I need to look in the mirror and separate my feelings into the appropriate categories of ownership.

    And, I only offer you my thoughts on the matter to help expand your own awareness, so please just take what is useful and try too avoid being too defensive just because you don't like a dose of my insight being injected into your musings.


  7. #67
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Thank you. I just don't know how to appreciate myself, I am ashamed all the time.
    I am very demanding with myself, but not with others in general.
    You need a million more of these so I am sending you tons!

    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I love those people, I wish I could have a healthy friendship with them and I'm just hurt. I don't want to despise them or reject them! The thing that disappoints me is not so much that they are human and flawed, but that they can be hurtful.
    I want to hear more detail about this, to understand the context. Share more if you feel open to it, I would love to help you work through some of that if I can.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Try thinking about your role models as equals to you. Don't think they are any better. You don't know this in reality. You know only the side of them that is visible to you. Think of them as normal people, who do good things (as well as bad things, maybe, but we don't need to especially focus on that).

    You cannot have a healthy relationship with anyone you don't feel equal to.
    Excellent thoughts and advice.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Thank you. I just don't know how to appreciate myself, I am ashamed all the time.
    I am very demanding with myself, but not with others in general.

    The only people I am demanding with would be my role models (those I idealize) and the people that inspire me, because I do more than my best in my relationships with them. If they hurt me, I simply can't take it, it hurts so bad. I'm still hurting about such a situation right now. If you could have a word of prayer for me that would be very appreciated...
    The thing is also that I fear and respect these role models and simply can't find the guts to really express my feelings after they hurt me. I don't really have the feeling PeaceBaby was talking about when she said:

    "So when other people are less than perfect we simultaneously get the thrill of their imperfection as an ego boost to ourselves."

    No, it just breaks me to pieces. I love those people, I wish I could have a healthy friendship with them and I'm just hurt. I don't want to despise them or reject them! The thing that disappoints me is not so much that they are human and flawed, but that they can be hurtful.

    But then again, I'm NF, and I need inspiration to do something with my life. These people provide inspiration and I feel like I can't go on without them.
    I will definitely pray for you. I am truly sorry now because I did not realize that someone had hurt you.

    It is okay to protect yourself if someone is hurting you. I, too, have experienced the sort of hurt that can come from loving someone idealistically. It is a shocking kind of pain.

  9. #69
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Forgive me for seeing and loving ideals in people and not the people themselves...
    Don't worry about that. I can't see the difference...
    Please, forgive me for seeing and loving abstract theories that even have nothing to do with people...

  10. #70
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Don't worry about that. I can't see the difference...
    Please, forgive me for seeing and loving abstract theories that even have nothing to do with people...

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