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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    Oh... Sorry to hear that. But you are very rational, I think. I would go for INT, reading your answers. INTJ, even.
    I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..

    however when I was much more healthy I did score INTJ.. but I am no scientist.. and for all my introversion .. I am a very warm and friendly person with social grace

  2. #22
    Senior Member Coeur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    Ok that is more clear.. and I agree wholly..
    To me, The ideal is love itself.. not the person..
    No person can live up to an ideal, except to themselves perhaps..
    But people can fit into the ideal of love and still be who they are, if the ideal of love is real..
    know what i mean?
    I think that love is both an action and a choice that comes from the inside. Thus, it really doesn't have anything to do with the other person. The other person doesn't have to be perfect to be loved.

    What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
    1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
    2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

    Also.. I'm a Christian too. Remember: Jesus is your role-model. Every single person that you will ever meet, no matter how good that they seem, will let you down and disappoint you. There's nothing wrong with thinking: "wow, that's a great quality; I'd love to emulate that!" But remember: Jesus is the ONLY one that is eternally good and consistent. What helps me love:
    1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
    2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?
    Everybody needs love.

  3. #23
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..

    however when I was much more healthy I did score INTJ.. but I am no scientist.. and for all my introversion .. I am a very warm and friendly person with social grace
    One of my best friends since childhood is INTJ. She can be warm and emotional (especially since she's become a mother) and is very gracious.

    I suppose it is normal to be very emotional when you are depressed. I go very INFP when I'm upset. My INTJ friend went through a little depression about a year ago, and I was surprised at what she was telling me about seeing the ugliness of the world and being afraid for her son growing up in it and all. She had very NF concerns all of a sudden.

    If you need to talk or share anything, my ear's open.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Coeur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..
    I've been there. :,((((( I'm also here to talk if need be.
    Everybody needs love.

  5. #25
    Aspiring Troens Ridder KLessard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeur View Post
    I think that love is both an action and a choice that comes from the inside. Thus, it really doesn't have anything to do with the other person. The other person doesn't have to be perfect to be loved.

    What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
    1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
    2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

    Also.. I'm a Christian too. :wave: Remember: Jesus is your role-model. Every single person that you will ever meet, no matter how good that they seem, will let you down and disappoint you. There's nothing wrong with thinking: "wow, that's a great quality; I'd love to emulate that!" But remember: Jesus is the ONLY one that is eternally good and consistent. What helps me love:
    1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
    2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?
    I agree!

    But do you ever find difficult to have an invisible role model? And a masculine role model (I'm a girl).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    One of my best friends since childhood is INTJ. She can be warm and emotional (especially since she's become a mother) and is very gracious.

    I suppose it is normal to be very emotional when you are depressed. I go very INFP when I'm upset. My INTJ friend went through a little depression about a year ago, and I was surprised at what she was telling me about seeing the ugliness of the world and being afraid for her son growing up in it and all. She had very NF concerns all of a sudden.

    If you need to talk or share anything, my ear's open.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coeur View Post
    I've been there. :,((((( I'm also here to talk if need be.
    Thank you both... I appreciate the extension

  7. #27
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post

    A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?
    I can relate to a lot of what you said.

    Here's a pretty interesting book which addresses the tendency of NFs to idealize their partners:

    Amazon.com: The Pygmalion Project, Vol. III: The Idealist (Love & Coercion Among the Types) (9780960695492): Stephen E. Montgomery: Books


    I don't know how serious the issue is for you, but if you have a consistent pattern of idealizing and devaluing the people in your life, you may also want to consider this book:

    Amazon.com: Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself (9780894864025): Melody Beattie: Books


    I hope you find these suggestions helpful.
    __________________


    I'M OUTTA HERE.

    IT'S BEEN FUN.

    TAKE CARE.

    PEACE OUT!!!


  8. #28
    Senior Member Coeur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KLessard View Post
    I agree!

    But do you ever find difficult to have an invisible role model? And a masculine role model (I'm a girl).
    Actually, Jesus said: "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet who have believed." It's interesting, because you'd think it would be the other way around. I definitely agree that it's a lot easier to have a visible role-model. Christians are supposed to be reflections of Christ, so technically there's nothing wrong with reflecting a reflection ().But that goes back to picking and choosing different qualities that you like, rather than copying the entire person. We are supposed to mimic Jesus, because people are only human. One of my favorite quotes: when you let God be God, you let people be people.

    It's also a lot easier in the moments where you connect personally with Him... if you look at a random Bible story and say: "Aha. That is what I have to do" it's very difficult to develop. We aren't robots that can be programmed by objectively reading a page (although meditating on it is different).
    Everybody needs love.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by No Exit View Post
    I would say this qualifies as loneliness.. or at least severe detachment .. most likely caused by loneliness...
    It would seem logical.
    Here is an idea for you to ponder.. suppose for a minute that the theory of self dependency is a mirage...And that people actually need each other.. That they are, in fact, dependent on each other.. wouldn't that explain a few things??
    Yes, it would. But people do not act as though they need each other, and most of them do not believe it. They are expected to be self-sufficient, generally.

    and who do you think would facilitate such a situation of disconnection between people and who would benefit from it?
    Perhaps people who offer things to fill the void in the absence of people? Manufacturers?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winged View Post
    A moment can occur, after ye've realised that this person is not as perfect as ye thought they were, that they do not embody the ideal you thought they did...

    ...when they do something that is beautifully ideal in that manner you thought of them, and they did it with all their flaws and lacking qualities intact, and I think that can make it even more amazing - when someone is not at an achieved state of zen or humility but does something in line with that virtue or strength.

    I might be entirely off here, it was simply my first thought.
    This is beautifully said. To me it is a glimpse of light in what seems like a very dark thread.

    I don't think I idealize people that much anymore. I might even say I don't expect much of the average person. And when I see a good deed, it is that more "miraculous".

    Quote Originally Posted by Coeur View Post
    What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
    1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
    2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

    What helps me love:
    1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
    2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?
    Yes. I would like to repeat, with bold letters: You can't fix people! You can, however, attempt to fix yourself. The further you get in that mission, the more you see people following the example you are setting. You don't even consciously have to send them any signals, just be the better person.

    One thing I would like to add, about the believers and the non-believers. They both have this trap they fall into. Thinking that they are superior for their world-view. So, believers, it might be possible that there are good atheists around. And non-believers, it is likely that there are many believers just as rational as you are.

    By the way that was not meant as an assault against anyone. It is just a big big big thing that keeps people from truly becoming humble and loving.

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