• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[NF] Forgive me (loving ideals instead of people) - For all types

Arclight

Permabanned
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
3,177
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Oh... Sorry to hear that. But you are very rational, I think. I would go for INT, reading your answers. INTJ, even.

I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..

however when I was much more healthy I did score INTJ.. but I am no scientist.. and for all my introversion .. I am a very warm and friendly person with social grace
 

Coeur

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
237
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Ok that is more clear.. and I agree wholly..
To me, The ideal is love itself.. not the person..
No person can live up to an ideal, except to themselves perhaps..
But people can fit into the ideal of love and still be who they are, if the ideal of love is real..
know what i mean?

I think that love is both an action and a choice that comes from the inside. Thus, it really doesn't have anything to do with the other person. The other person doesn't have to be perfect to be loved.

What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

Also.. I'm a Christian too. :hi: Remember: Jesus is your role-model. Every single person that you will ever meet, no matter how good that they seem, will let you down and disappoint you. There's nothing wrong with thinking: "wow, that's a great quality; I'd love to emulate that!" But remember: Jesus is the ONLY one that is eternally good and consistent. What helps me love:
1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..

however when I was much more healthy I did score INTJ.. but I am no scientist.. and for all my introversion .. I am a very warm and friendly person with social grace

One of my best friends since childhood is INTJ. She can be warm and emotional (especially since she's become a mother) and is very gracious.

I suppose it is normal to be very emotional when you are depressed. I go very INFP when I'm upset. My INTJ friend went through a little depression about a year ago, and I was surprised at what she was telling me about seeing the ugliness of the world and being afraid for her son growing up in it and all. She had very NF concerns all of a sudden.

If you need to talk or share anything, my ear's open.
 

Coeur

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
237
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
I have been emotionally traumatized recently.. and have withdrawn.. I am quite emotional.. I have just gone numb.. Its a survival mechanism, If I feel anymore.. I will implode completely.. I need to rationalize feeling right now to stop myself from completely detaching..

:hug: I've been there. :,((((( I'm also here to talk if need be.
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
I think that love is both an action and a choice that comes from the inside. Thus, it really doesn't have anything to do with the other person. The other person doesn't have to be perfect to be loved.

What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

Also.. I'm a Christian too. :wave: Remember: Jesus is your role-model. Every single person that you will ever meet, no matter how good that they seem, will let you down and disappoint you. There's nothing wrong with thinking: "wow, that's a great quality; I'd love to emulate that!" But remember: Jesus is the ONLY one that is eternally good and consistent. What helps me love:
1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?

I agree! :hug:

But do you ever find difficult to have an invisible role model? And a masculine role model (I'm a girl).
 

Arclight

Permabanned
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
3,177
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
One of my best friends since childhood is INTJ. She can be warm and emotional (especially since she's become a mother) and is very gracious.

I suppose it is normal to be very emotional when you are depressed. I go very INFP when I'm upset. My INTJ friend went through a little depression about a year ago, and I was surprised at what she was telling me about seeing the ugliness of the world and being afraid for her son growing up in it and all. She had very NF concerns all of a sudden.

If you need to talk or share anything, my ear's open.

:hug: I've been there. :,((((( I'm also here to talk if need be.
Thank you both... I appreciate the extension :blush:
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,154
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
A question to fellow Idealists: is it possible to stop this stupid idealization process? Or idealization is actually seeing people as diamonds in the rough, seeing them as they would be if they had reached their full potential?

I can relate to a lot of what you said.

Here's a pretty interesting book which addresses the tendency of NFs to idealize their partners:

Amazon.com: The Pygmalion Project, Vol. III: The Idealist (Love & Coercion Among the Types) (9780960695492): Stephen E. Montgomery: Books


I don't know how serious the issue is for you, but if you have a consistent pattern of idealizing and devaluing the people in your life, you may also want to consider this book:

Amazon.com: Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself (9780894864025): Melody Beattie: Books


I hope you find these suggestions helpful. :D
 

Coeur

New member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
237
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
I agree! :hug:

But do you ever find difficult to have an invisible role model? And a masculine role model (I'm a girl).

Actually, Jesus said: "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet who have believed." It's interesting, because you'd think it would be the other way around. I definitely agree that it's a lot easier to have a visible role-model. Christians are supposed to be reflections of Christ, so technically there's nothing wrong with reflecting a reflection :)huh:).But that goes back to picking and choosing different qualities that you like, rather than copying the entire person. We are supposed to mimic Jesus, because people are only human. One of my favorite quotes: when you let God be God, you let people be people.

It's also a lot easier in the moments where you connect personally with Him... if you look at a random Bible story and say: "Aha. That is what I have to do" it's very difficult to develop. We aren't robots that can be programmed by objectively reading a page (although meditating on it is different).
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I would say this qualifies as loneliness.. or at least severe detachment .. most likely caused by loneliness...

It would seem logical.
Here is an idea for you to ponder.. suppose for a minute that the theory of self dependency is a mirage...And that people actually need each other.. That they are, in fact, dependent on each other.. wouldn't that explain a few things??

Yes, it would. But people do not act as though they need each other, and most of them do not believe it. They are expected to be self-sufficient, generally.

and who do you think would facilitate such a situation of disconnection between people and who would benefit from it?

Perhaps people who offer things to fill the void in the absence of people? Manufacturers?
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
A moment can occur, after ye've realised that this person is not as perfect as ye thought they were, that they do not embody the ideal you thought they did...

...when they do something that is beautifully ideal in that manner you thought of them, and they did it with all their flaws and lacking qualities intact, and I think that can make it even more amazing - when someone is not at an achieved state of zen or humility but does something in line with that virtue or strength.

I might be entirely off here, it was simply my first thought.

This is beautifully said. To me it is a glimpse of light in what seems like a very dark thread.

I don't think I idealize people that much anymore. I might even say I don't expect much of the average person. And when I see a good deed, it is that more "miraculous".

What's helped me kill the idealism thus far:
1. By letting others control their own self-improvement and staying out of their business. Once you realize that you CAN'T 'fix' someone, you're less likely to idealize them. Know that, in all cases, you cannot fully help the other person without their consent. Can you encourage them? Can you lighten their load? Of course, and by all means do so. But helping them is different than trying to force your own will upon them. At the end of the day, it's up to them to change. You can't control anyone except yourself.
2. Don't ignore flaws. I'm always tempted to let warning-signs roll off my back, or over-justify the other person's behavior. Of course, patience is a virtue. But are you really exercising patience if it's based on self-deception? Be understanding, but be aware. Note that being a doormat leads to pent up resentment, thus isn't really patience.

What helps me love:
1. Being understanding of the ENTIRE person. If you see where their flaws stem from, it is easier to accept them.
2. Realizing that we're all united by our need for God. Which means humbling myself and being aware of my OWN flaws. How can I expect others to be an ideal that I myself can't reach?

Yes. I would like to repeat, with bold letters: You can't fix people! You can, however, attempt to fix yourself. The further you get in that mission, the more you see people following the example you are setting. You don't even consciously have to send them any signals, just be the better person.

One thing I would like to add, about the believers and the non-believers. They both have this trap they fall into. Thinking that they are superior for their world-view. So, believers, it might be possible that there are good atheists around. And non-believers, it is likely that there are many believers just as rational as you are.

By the way that was not meant as an assault against anyone. It is just a big big big thing that keeps people from truly becoming humble and loving.
 

Arclight

Permabanned
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
3,177
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
It would seem logical.


Yes, it would. But people do not act as though they need each other, and most of them do not believe it. They are expected to be self-sufficient, generally.



Perhaps people who offer things to fill the void in the absence of people? Manufacturers?

Yeah .. You are getting close..
Untied people are powerful people... Love can inspire end enlighten.. Inspired and enlightened people are powerful people.. Enlightenment brings awareness, and most importantly..courage and positive self esteem..
 

KLessard

Aspiring Troens Ridder
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
595
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
This is beautifully said. To me it is a glimpse of light in what seems like a very dark thread.

I don't think I idealize people that much anymore. I might even say I don't expect much of the average person. And when I see a good deed, it is that more "miraculous".



Yes. I would like to repeat, with bold letters: You can't fix people! You can, however, attempt to fix yourself. The further you get in that mission, the more you see people following the example you are setting. You don't even consciously have to send them any signals, just be the better person.

One thing I would like to add, about the believers and the non-believers. They both have this trap they fall into. Thinking that they are superior for their world-view. So, believers, it might be possible that there are good atheists around. And non-believers, it is likely that there are many believers just as rational as you are.

By the way that was not meant as an assault against anyone. It is just a big big big thing that keeps people from truly becoming humble and loving.


I am always surprised to see how atheists view christians' repentance and readiness to see their own sin as a "dark thread." (Or perhaps this is not what you see as dark...? What do you mean by very dark?)
Repentance and change are beautiful and very luminous things in my perspective. This thread is full of light and hope for me.

Another thing in connection to Winged's idea:
When I start to accept people as they are, I see ideals in them I hadn't noticed before (especially if they are a different type - non-NFs)! For example, I was very hurt by an ISFJ role model lately, but God gave me grace to get over it and to forgive. I started to see how beautiful her loyalty to her family and folk was and how noble her helpmate qualities were. Those were not really the qualities I had seen in her at first.
 

Gerbah

New member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
433
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
5w4
If any of you have ever been loved and admired by an NF in this idealistic way, this is great honour. The Idealist is seeing something wonderful and universal in you.

I was in a romantic relationship once with an NF who idealised me. No one had ever done that to me before and it felt delicious at the time but I'm sorry, I disagree that it was a “great honour”. His idealisation of me was completely selfish. My alarm bells were ringing from the beginning but I ignored them because the emotions in the present moment felt so good. He wanted to marry me straight away but thank goodness I didn't let him sweep me up that far. I think part of the problem may have been I did not idealise him and called him on inappropriate behaviour and he couldn't handle the responsibility of treating me with proper respect, I think because it made him feel too bad about himself – all of which was exaggerated to high drama in his mind. He broke up with me after playing havoc with my emotions. He even had the nerve to discuss his whole “does the perfect partner exist? Maybe not, etc.” with me. He used me and wasted my time and energy as well as hurting me a lot because I let him hook my emotions. It was no honour.

I understand that you just want to explain the NF point of view and point out a certain fault in it but please do not tell yourself and other NFs and the people who've been idealised by NFs that it isn't so bad because the NF saw something wonderful in you. That is the opposite of love, that is self-contained self-gratification. The idealised person is turned into an object to be consumed. And the good I have in me, I let him have but he didn't deserve it.

I'm not saying you are as extreme as the NF I was in a relationship with. But it can go that far if the NF is very unhealthy and as a general warning to everyone, I want to say that it's something to be very wary of if you feel it might be happening to you.
 

Arclight

Permabanned
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
3,177
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
I was in a romantic relationship once with an NF who idealised me. No one had ever done that to me before and it felt delicious at the time but I'm sorry, I disagree that it was a “great honour”. His idealisation of me was completely selfish. My alarm bells were ringing from the beginning but I ignored them because the emotions in the present moment felt so good. He wanted to marry me straight away but thank goodness I didn't let him sweep me up that far. I think part of the problem may have been I did not idealise him and called him on inappropriate behaviour and he couldn't handle the responsibility of treating me with proper respect, I think because it made him feel too bad about himself – all of which was exaggerated to high drama in his mind. He broke up with me after playing havoc with my emotions. He even had the nerve to discuss his whole “does the perfect partner exist? Maybe not, etc.” with me. He used me and wasted my time and energy as well as hurting me a lot because I let him hook my emotions. It was no honour.

I understand that you just want to explain the NF point of view and point out a certain fault in it but please do not tell yourself and other NFs and the people who've been idealised by NFs that it isn't so bad because the NF saw something wonderful in you. That is the opposite of love, that is self-contained self-gratification. The idealised person is turned into an object to be consumed. And the good I have in me, I let him have but he didn't deserve it.

I'm not saying you are as extreme as the NF I was in a relationship with. But it can go that far if the NF is very unhealthy and as a general warning to everyone, I want to say that it's something to be very wary of if you feel it might be happening to you.
OMG this post especially the RED.. i could have written it myself..
 

camille

New member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Messages
23
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
4
I find it easier to communicate with people once I have seen their weaknesses or sides of them I wouldn't normally see.

Most everyone tries to show their best side all the time. And when someone slips, you can almost see the wave of emotions. First the adrenaline, then the doubt, then the defensiveness, then the embarrassment, then the regret or guilt or whatever follows.

Idealizing people is like developing crushes on them, it lures you in...whether it be an author, speaker, friend, lover, mentor. When you first realize they do slip up, it's a let down. But that's a good thing. It's a reality check which prevents you from getting too far into fantasy and allows the relationship to stabilize.

I need stability, or grounding. I think the more my views have changed on people and what kind of relationships I want with them, the less I have idealized them or what they do. Since I seek out more intense relationships, I need to feel a range of emotions when with them.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I am not sure.. I have been through a roller coaster of emotions the past 2 years, a lot of my pillars of identity have crumbled..(my own doing) and I am lost to who I really I am..

When I first took MBTI.. I scored INTJ... then INTP.. eventually to ISFP and now lately INFP.. I went from type 9 to type 6 to type 4 .. I hope I am being more honest with myself.. It's very obvious I haven't been me for a long time.. I was living very much a shadow of myself..

You sound like me from ages 18-24. Wow. With the exception of ISFP. I leapt from INTJ-INTP-INFJ-INFP-ENFP-ENFJ.

I guess that can happen...And I know what you mean by living a shadow of yourself.
 

Arclight

Permabanned
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Messages
3,177
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
You sound like me from ages 18-24. Wow. With the exception of ISFP. I leapt from INTJ-INTP-INFJ-INFP-ENFP-ENFJ.

I guess that can happen...And I know what you mean by living a shadow of yourself.

Yeah the joke is.. I am 40..

But as the fog clears I will have a better understanding of things
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Hey, type is just one thing in a million....The human psyche is so complex that we couldn't hope to encapsulate it in a single methodology or analytical framework.

By the way, I can relate very much to loving ideals more than people.
 
Top