[Ni] The pain of Ni in a male INFJ

[Billy]

oh but the trouble is differentiating the "Nice Guy" attitude from actual respect when you're stuck in the nice guy complex.

Nice guys tend to have low self respect thats how you can tell. Any man who would try to make a woman fall in love with him by being her "friend" first and giving her what he thinks she wants is silly... its the same thing women do to men they like they think they have no shot with. Instead of using kindness to smother someone to death they use sex to trick men into liking them and confusing the situation and not giving him a real chance to see if he likes who she is.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I don't see the nice guy bit as the problem because it does work on some I think. Also, my theory is that a real connection with someone is not fragile. There isn't one mistaken word or act that causes an enduring connection to crumble. Getting caught up worrying about the details can cause more problems that it solves.

From what I understand of Ni, it has the dichotomy of seeing the biggest picture possible and extracting core concepts from it into a singularity. The kinds of depression that result from it can assume this unifying theme applies to the big picture. The problem can be that the core problem can be misidentified. The solution is to let go of that core assumption and look at the big picture again. Instead of feeling that every relationship is doom to fail, that somehow self is doomed to be alone no matter what, etc. as the core idea, it is better to look again at the big picture and realize that there are more people than can ever be imagined. There is someone else to love that will not cause pain. They are not all the same. The only issue is figuring out how to find the person. You have to work out the right kinds of filters. The world is always bigger and more varied than our minds can comprehend. This means there is always hope.

 

[nzAShadow]

I don't see the nice guy bit as the problem because it does work on some I think. Also, my theory is that a real connection with someone is not fragile. There isn't one mistaken word or act that causes an enduring connection to crumble. Getting caught up worrying about the details can cause more problems that it solves.

From what I understand of Ni, it has the dichotomy of seeing the biggest picture possible and extracting core concepts from it into a singularity. The kinds of depression that result from it can assume this unifying theme applies to the big picture. The problem can be that the core problem can be misidentified. The solution is to let go of that core assumption and look at the big picture again. Instead of feeling that every relationship is doom to fail, that somehow self is doomed to be alone no matter what, etc. as the core idea, it is better to look again at the big picture and realize that there are more people than can ever be imagined. There is someone else to love that will not cause pain. They are not all the same. The only issue is figuring out how to find the person. You have to work out the right kinds of filters. The world is always bigger and more varied than our minds can comprehend. This means there is always hope.

You hit the nail on the head.

His core assumption is that every relationship is doomed to fail, and he consistently comments on how he'll never get married, or have kids, or die alone. This is also why he didn't even pursue this potential relationship, he had no hope that it would last, so he just stood aside and let her take her rebound elsewhere.

How would you go about changing the core belief though? I mean obviously he will have to do this himself, but I'm sure he would need to be guided in some way.

Forcing him out of his comfort zone will help of course, but I wonder if I should try urge him to make a conscious effort to change the filters he has set.

 

[Tikka]

I don't see the nice guy bit as the problem because it does work on some I think.

Really, no, unless you're a 50 year old woman who has been abused mentally by 10 ex boyfriends and 3 ex husbands, and thus wants to settle for something less adventurous and moldable.

She won't be totally happy, though. Just perhaps content.

But this is a bit offtopic. As for the topicstarter: your guy needs to learn by doing, not by theorizing.

 

[Athenian200]

Get him into computers, psychology, or engineering.

Those things can give you a perspective on life that frees you from the need for another person in order to have a reason to exist. Once you understand the mechanics behind such feelings, you have more control and a better chance of transcending them.

When you understand that there are valid reasons to live, things to be curious about and strive to understand, even if every other person in the world died, your will to live increases exponentially and becomes unshakable.

 

[nzAShadow]

Get him into computers, psychology, or engineering.

Those things can give you a perspective on life that frees you from the need for another person in order to have a reason to exist.

Well his video card broke, so now he is a gamer without a way to play. I have given him an enneagram book, MBTI book, and Owning your Shadow. He does take a strong interest in psychology, I guess when he's done with those books I can lend him all my Jung and Freud books, though I don't like Freud much, I'm sure he wouldn't like him either.

He hates math so... engineering may be out of the question.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Really, no, unless you're a 50 year old woman who has been abused mentally by 10 ex boyfriends and 3 ex husbands, and thus wants to settle for something less adventurous and moldable.

We've never met and yet you know me so well.

She won't be totally happy, though. Just perhaps content.

But this is a bit offtopic. As for the topicstarter: your guy needs to learn by doing, not by theorizing.

I think "nice guy" is a rather broad concept.

You hit the nail on the head.

His core assumption is that every relationship is doomed to fail, and he consistently comments on how he'll never get married, or have kids, or die alone. This is also why he didn't even pursue this potential relationship, he had no hope that it would last, so he just stood aside and let her take her rebound elsewhere.

How would you go about changing the core belief though? I mean obviously he will have to do this himself, but I'm sure he would need to be guided in some way.

Forcing him out of his comfort zone will help of course, but I wonder if I should try urge him to make a conscious effort to change the filters he has set.

That is a tough one. In the depth of depression his thinking might be stuck. I agree that the most tangible approach might be a good first step - to actually see other girls. If he doesn't want to go out, then inviting people over for a movie or something that is not socially demanding, but still interactive might be a good start.

 

[Phantonym]

Really, no, unless you're a 50 year old woman who has been abused mentally by 10 ex boyfriends and 3 ex husbands, and thus wants to settle for something less adventurous and moldable.

She won't be totally happy, though. Just perhaps content.

But this is a bit offtopic. As for the topicstarter: your guy needs to learn by doing, not by theorizing.

Sorry for derailing the thread but come on. What do you mean by the sentence in bold? This would indicate that that 50 yo woman has had encounters with exactly the opposite of the nice guys, so is that what you'd recommend? Is that what you think women really want? Would you care to explain what is exactly your idea of a nice guy? There's nothing wrong with being less adventurous, it's all about the quality rather than quantity of the "adventure".

And being malleable? That's not a nice guy, that's a wuss. I'm sorry but in my understanding those two concepts are not the same.

If I understand you correctly, then you can count me in the minority of women who actually want a nice guy.

 

[Athenian200]

Well his video card broke, so now he is a gamer without a way to play. I have given him an enneagram book, MBTI book, and Owning your Shadow. He does take a strong interest in psychology, I guess when he's done with those books I can lend him all my Jung and Freud books, though I don't like Freud much, I'm sure he wouldn't like him either.

He hates math so... engineering may be out of the question.

Ooh. Yeah, I think that's bad. I'm only half-joking when I say that being without a good video card could make a PC gamer want to kill themselves on it's own. >.<

Look carefully for signs, and if things get problematic, you may need to convince someone to get him a new video card.

You might not THINK a new piece of hardware could give someone the will to live, but if you're depressed and start tinkering with it... you want to see what it can do. And then you want to try different things with it, and by the time you're done, you've found other things to focus on and you're not depressed anymore.

 

[Billy]

Why does everyone defend "nice" guys when people start speaking truth about them? Hey a nice guy isnt just a guy who is nice, its a guy who is coming in under the pretext of being your friend and lying to your face all the while trying to convince you to love him. Its PATHETIC. Any woman who would willingly date a guy like that should have her head checked.

 

[Phantonym]

Why does everyone defend "nice" guys when people start speaking truth about them? Hey a nice guy isnt just a guy who is nice, its a guy who is coming in under the pretext of being your friend and lying to your face all the while trying to convince you to love him. Its PATHETIC. Any woman who would willingly date a guy like that should have her head checked.

Oh? I guess I really am mistaken about the definition then. I would have another term for a guy you're describing and that wouldn't be nice at all. Silly me for thinking that nice guys actually are...nice.

 

[nzAShadow]

That is a tough one. In the depth of depression his thinking might be stuck. I agree that the most tangible approach might be a good first step - to actually see other girls. If he doesn't want to go out, then inviting people over for a movie or something that is not socially demanding, but still interactive might be a good start.

One difficulty with this is that he lives 2 hours away, and coming to town he really has limited options of where he can hang around. The main place where we have our social gatherings also happens to be the place this whole thing started.

Though still, he's generally fine when he comes to hang out, it's when the girl comes, then there's a chance that he'll withdraw back in his head, or he'll actually interact with her. The problem with that though is that if she's there, the rebound guy will eventually show up, and this usually triggers him back into the Ni depression instantly.

 

[Oaky]

Why does everyone defend "nice" guys when people start speaking truth about them? Hey a nice guy isnt just a guy who is nice, its a guy who is coming in under the pretext of being your friend and lying to your face all the while trying to convince you to love him. Its PATHETIC. Any woman who would willingly date a guy like that should have her head checked.

Sorry Billy, you've been disqualified of the title of an INFJ.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Why does everyone defend "nice" guys when people start speaking truth about them? Hey a nice guy isnt just a guy who is nice, its a guy who is coming in under the pretext of being your friend and lying to your face all the while trying to convince you to love him. Its PATHETIC. Any woman who would willingly date a guy like that should have her head checked.

Why would someone defend what you describe? They wouldn't. They don't share your definition.

Those aren't the only two options, right? Guys who pretend to be nice and guys who are demonstrably not nice, but better because they aren't pretending?

I think it is entirely possible that the guy in the OP is actually a nice guy.

 

[Moiety]

Ask him (that is...make him ask himself) what he likes about this girl.

 

[nzAShadow]

Why would someone defend what you describe? They wouldn't. They don't share your definition.

Those aren't the only two options, right? Guys who pretend to be nice and guys who are demonstrably not nice, but better because they aren't pretending?

I think it is entirely possible that the guy in the OP is actually a nice guy.

Correct, he doesn't fit Billy's description of a nice guy, he told her he did have the feelings, he would date her, but he felt they would be rushing it, so the girl went to the guy that would sleep with her right away.

 

[Athenian200]

Why does everyone defend "nice" guys when people start speaking truth about them? Hey a nice guy isnt just a guy who is nice, its a guy who is coming in under the pretext of being your friend and lying to your face all the while trying to convince you to love him. Its PATHETIC. Any woman who would willingly date a guy like that should have her head checked.

That's kind of an ironic term for it, then.

I always assumed that term was about bashing guys for having a nice, considerate personality instead of being tough, assertive jerks.

So the term "nice guy" refers to a guy who is dishonest about his intentions?

 

[nzAShadow]

That's kind of an ironic term for it, then.

I always assumed that term was about bashing guys for having a nice, considerate personality instead of being tough, assertive jerks.

So the term "nice guy" refers to a guy who is dishonest about his intentions?

I don't think he was specific, he just described someone who could be labeled a nice guy from the observers point of view.

This description also falls into the category of orbiters, the friend's that secretly want to have sex with the girl.

Billy's earlier description did have merit, low self respect is also a common trait in the nice guy population, and also the reason why the girl won't go for those particular nice guys.

Also the guy in the OP fits this description, he does tend to have a low self respect, as in, he won't reach out for what he wants, lacking the confidence in himself that he would succeed in obtaining the goal.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I don't think he was specific, he just described someone who could be labeled a nice guy from the observers point of view.

This description also falls into the category of orbiters, the friend's that secretly want to have sex with the girl.

Billy's earlier description did have merit, low self respect is also a common trait in the nice guy population, and also the reason why the girl won't go for those particular nice guys.

Also the guy in the OP fits this description, he does tend to have a low self respect, as in, he won't reach out for what he wants, lacking the confidence in himself that he would succeed in obtaining the goal.

There certainly are all types of people including people who fake a front to get what they want.

One reason people push back against dismissing nice guys as only manipulative is that it can be convenient for a person who chooses to behave as a jerk to both justify/rationalize that behavior while at the same time assuming a superior position to people who seem nice. It is a classic strawman argument. You disintegrate the opposing opinion/option into something everyone has to dismiss. That viewpoint crumbles with the existence of actually kindhearted guys. Then the bar is set higher and being a jerk doesn't mean you are honest. It means you are a jerk.

 

[nzAShadow]

Agreed. However the problem remains that more girls will fall for the jerk front than they will for the kindhearted guys. This in itself will be enough for them to remain a jerk, since it simply has a higher success rate.

Since this is the case, they will probably continue to justify their behavior with the same logic, even if their argument has crumbled with the existence of real nice guys. Being kindhearted is also misunderstood as simply being a doormat, perhaps under the same train of thought that you pointed out.

This subjective logic is quite inconvenient for the nice people out there because those that indulge themselves in it will always continue to rationalize their behavior in such a way, and always leave the nice guys with the short straws.

Seems I'm pretty pessimistic, lol