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  1. #31
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Before I start, let me clarify what I'm talking about. I'm not saying run from your negative emotions or stuff them until they come exploding out. I'm not going to say it's always good to confront things head-on (although this is my preferred method, but it can backfire) because some things need to be approached indirectly rather than directly. I suppose the skill lies in knowing when and how to do what.

    I am referring specifically to people who seem to get pleasure through experiencing negative emotion, encourage it festering within themselves, because of some misguided notion of what I'm not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Note: I'm 4w5 enneagram.
    It's more that my emotional scars tend to be visible to those that come close to me. Fi tends to show itself as the vulnerable part of me in all its glory to those that can be trusted with this. This includes emotional battlescars, but also transformations that ensued from them.
    I don't think that is Fi specific. Maybe there's a manifestation of it that it's particularly Fi. When you get closer to someone, you start revealing higher-stakes aspects of yourself as a sign of trust and of course you feel especially vulnerable to rejection or disregard. You want people to treat those vulnerabilities with the care you think it deserves. For me, I know I like to share lessons learned with others, so maybe I'm not as reluctant to show the end product, but the process is something I tend to keep more to myself and those I trust.

    But that cave is a part of you. If you dare not enter, who will? And...are you really capable of ignoring something which stench is spreading through your entire being? For that matter, if you are the cave and you made it..what's there to be afraid of? Yourself? My experience is that those skeletons don't bite, they just tend to be lodged in the sands of time, remaining half-buried only and a bitch to remove completley. The painful part is overcoming that wall of fire at the entrance, and the mirror right behind it, causing you to stand in the fire forever as you don't want to face what you've done or what you are and. If you're not careful, you end up never getting to those skeletons and giving them a proper burial while forever trapped in the fire.
    Once upon a time, I left food in my room and it started to stink. I smelled it and instantly went looking for the source. When I found it I threw it in the trash, sprinkled some carpet fresh, and vacuumed. I cleaned it up. I made a mental note...if I ever encounter such a smell again this is how I deal with it. I've encountered such smells within me. I don't need to go start anew, reinvestigating.

    This is a part of dark psychology that I'm sure some people don't recognize within themselves, but I've encountered quite a few people who plant funky land mines within themselves and through some type of twisted thinking view ritualizing the unearthing of this dangerous devices as some type of revered emotional experience. When a person creates situations where they have these negative emotional adrenaline rushes they are walking sinkholes. You mention them later and they are way too numerous for me not to think something is up.

    Glorifying this behavior instead of recognizing it for what it typically is, a dangerous pattern that doesn't necessarily lead to emotional nirvana, leads even further downward. I hope I'm not misunderstanding what you and others are saying. I understand people as saying they don't like doing this but they feel compelled to. I'd rather know why they feel compelled to repeat, rinse, repeat to hopefully break a cycle.

    When you see yourself walking into that all too familiar cave, stop. Why am I going in here again? Haven't I already done this? Something may be drawing you back to that cave again, but to me recognizing when there is a legitimate reason to go back in the cave vs. answering a siren's call is more important that fully experiencing every nuance of that feeling. I personally would rather show people how to recognize when they're entering dark territory and if they must enter, give them some weapons, show them how to protect themselves against what they encounter, offer some guidance. Not just send them in and tell them to feel. I think taking any other position is emotionally irresponsible. LOL, this reminds me of an episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Spike tells Buffy after she died and came back that she came back wrong. And then they have sex.

    Hehe. Oh it's no picnic, for sure. But I find that walking through the fire...(mind you walking, not standing still in it!) is..rather purifying. Scratch that, it's intensely purifying. And most Fi's don't have a choice, ime. The fire finds them anyways. Either you constantly run from it, becoming paranoid of the shadows. Or, another option is, you can stand there, fight and refuse to walk on, constantly getting burned and panicking like mad and getting burned over and over again, in a continuous loop, coz there's no way you'll win. Or you can accept it, weather through it and find out what's on the other side of it. Usually, it's well worth the pain and the experience. The wisdom that lies behind it is..worth every little flame.
    Each person travels through their own dark paths and they're unique to the person walking them. But there are similarities and commonalities and if someone else can tell another person, hey that's not a good path to walk down I wouldn't do that if I were you, when do you learn to heed good advice? Some people have to find out on their own; I know I've been in situations (and probably be in more later on in life) where I've sincerely regretted not listening to those wiser than me telling me I need to rethink how I'm proceeding. I created unnecessary hardship for myself and for what? Some scars are disfiguring, ugly, and unnecessary. I don't think most people regret the wisdom gained through hardship, but I'm pretty sure they wish they hadn't learned it in the way they did. When it is avoidable work smarter, not harder.

    Experiencing in an emotional way is a part of me. It's what I'm meant to do. Why run from who you are? Sure, a reprieve sometimes is nice, and god knows we all have done the whole cocoon thing. But it always ends up biting you in the ass, with you feeling dull,dead and empty, I find. I'd rather be screaming at the top of my lungs, being burned by the emotional fire, than feel as if I'm dead. At least the Fire will let me know I'm alive.
    OK, this is interesting. When I think about this, I'm really practical and specific. Take my situation for example. My family and I are navigating end of life issues. Personally, it's gutwrenching to be where I'm at and I guess for someone to say they like to live in places like this is a foreign concept to me. I think when people conceive of emotional intensity, it tends to be of the romantic kind. But their are many different forms of emotional intensity and for those along the negative end of the spectrum, I don't think most people enjoy it and seek ways to avoid them. Most of the hardest decisions we make in life tend to be between equally unpleasant options. I love making decisions about pleasurable things because I don't lose any way I decide.

    And this feeling of being dead inside...that does make me wonder about the people I've encountered who need to drama in their lives. When I say drama, I'm not necessarily thinking of it in a negative way. I know people who need to be embroiled in complicated situations. How does not feeling dead inside translate practically? A benign example of this can be listening to certain types of music, but more extreme examples don't seem like they would be good. Does this mean that you seek situations that will engage your emotions? For me, I like to have my emotional temperature set at 72. I like the concept of emotional cruise control. Wild variances tend to drag me along with it and the effects are often difficult to right again.

    I doubt any of us seek out these (negative) experiences consciously. But when they do happen, it's not exactly a choice to not fully experience them in this way.
    Yes, I agree about this. Sometimes you have to go places you don't want to go. I guess I'm all about deciding how you'll go.
    At least, it isn't to me. Imo, it takes skill and experience in fact, to channel them in such a way that you're not consumed by them entirely. And even then, it's only a tool to help you go through it. I do feel drawn to negative emotions in people, simply because they are so hard to ignore and you want it to stop. Of course you wanna help the person, but you also want to stop the 'emotional polution' they're spreading. The fact that you've been there, you've experienced it as well, can idd help that process. Depending on the emotion they're spreading it kinda reminds me of seeing a will o' the wisp dance during a moonless night in the fog amidst treacherous marshes. Irresistable...and with a good guide...so worth it.
    Yeah, I get this part too. Like the stinky sandwich. I'm ambivalent about seeking it out in others though. Infectious disease and all, unless of course you have immunity. You can gain immunity by getting sick with the illness or getting a vaccine. Sometimes you catch it and you just deal with it. Sometimes you put yourself in a situation to catch it and I don't think that's a smart move. But now I'm thinking about survival rates and comorbidities and all types of crazy stuff.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything but it seems (and this is from my observations of FPs in the MBTI world) to me that FPs wear their emotional scars like soldiers wear medals and ribbons.

    I don't enjoy feeling my emotional turmoil and I don't understand why anyone would enjoy feeling it or wallowing in it. The way I think of it is there's this dark cave with skeletons littered everywhere. There's a foul smell coming from it. There are signs warning you not to go in that cave. You have just as much of a chance of becoming one of those skeletons laying on the ground as emerging victoriously from the cave. If you do emerge from the cave, you're more than likely to be traumatized in some way from what you experienced.

    When everything is telling you don't do it, don't go in there, why go there? I know I'm a Fe and what makes good sense to Fe doesn't necessarily make sense to Fi but I don't need to touch fire to know that it burns. I don't need to have scalding burns and blistering skin to fully experience every nook and cranny of pain. I'm far more willing to experience the fullness of positive emotion than negative emotion, but then we get into the whole sweet/sour, dark/light blase blase.

    And often to me it seems like people who seek these types of emotional experiences tend to carry a lot of baggage from their journeys. What is wrong with being free and uncluttered and learning vicariously through others? How can you travel down these paths and not expect to pick up anything, which once again is just as likely to be bad mojo as it is to be "good"?

    I can see that if you're one of the people goes through the fire and does well, how thr fullness of understanding helps your to reach those in the darkest corners. But it seems to me there are other ways to reach people in the trenches if that is what your goal is. I know people tend to be more receptive to those who have experienced the same things they have, there's greater room for understanding and I agree with that. But for me personally, I don't seek out such things or when they happen to me I don't try to purposely go further down the hole. If things happen to move in that direction then what can you do but move with it, but no purposely delving into negativity for me. I don't view this type of seeking as being "deeper" and in some ways I view it as incredibly foolish.

    I guess in MBTI terms, this is extroverted perception at work but sorry I see more effed upness as a result of this than great emotional counselors. I see a lot of hurt people and some overcome and some don't. I don't advocate exploring things like this to their fullest. I think if you sense you're headed in a bad direction, take heed to your senses and go in the opposite direction.
    This.

    Also, it becomes a cycle very hard to break. I know a few people like this who have never been able to move past it. I've watched one person in particular for 20 plus years now and it has never gotten better, in fact it gets worse. Lets call her Sally lol. They take themselves out of the present to really get into these issues and explore them. Meanwhile life is going on for everyone else, but they are missing that too. Next thing you know they need to explore the issues that they missed while being out of the present (of course, made bad decisions as well because they weren't fully available to make good decisions.) It never ends.

    Sally has become so isolated through not being relatable to anyone. No one can feel her pain like she can, but she can't feel anothers pain either....unless she fully explores those emotions. Its become downright strange now. A family member had a heinous crime (think along the lines of an assault) committed against her and while telling what happened and looking for support from Sally (her mother), Sally said "I dont know what to say, its never happened to me" and sat there staring at her daughter. She has also made a habit of taking over another family members special occasions to talk about an obscure incident that happened in her childhood that she thinks affects her now. She wants to talk about it with her father over dinner while we are celebrating a 12 year olds birthday party!

    Its not like Sally woke up one day like this, this has been going for so long over years that she is totally not "there" with people. She claims all the time about people not taking her feelings seriously and feeling isolated and lonely, but will keep on trucking exploring those dark things and taking herself out of present day.

  3. #33
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything but it seems (and this is from my observations of FPs in the MBTI world) to me that FPs wear their emotional scars like soldiers wear medals and ribbons.

    I don't enjoy feeling my emotional turmoil and I don't understand why anyone would enjoy feeling it or wallowing in it. The way I think of it is there's this dark cave with skeletons littered everywhere. There's a foul smell coming from it. There are signs warning you not to go in that cave. You have just as much of a chance of becoming one of those skeletons laying on the ground as emerging victoriously from the cave. If you do emerge from the cave, you're more than likely to be traumatized in some way from what you experienced.

    When everything is telling you don't do it, don't go in there, why go there? I know I'm a Fe and what makes good sense to Fe doesn't necessarily make sense to Fi but I don't need to touch fire to know that it burns. I don't need to have scalding burns and blistering skin to fully experience every nook and cranny of pain. I'm far more willing to experience the fullness of positive emotion than negative emotion, but then we get into the whole sweet/sour, dark/light blase blase.
    Speaking for myself and anyone of any type who experiences this, sometimes (not most of the time, just during low moods) the only emotional experience that seems available comes from morbid subject matter. There are two distinct emotional states that can be symptoms of depression: sadness, and lack of ability to feel pleasure (sometimes with no ability to feel negative things either, but that looks different). Some people tend more towards one kind than the other. Me, I find one leads to the other, because there are times when for some reason nothing makes me laugh, nothing makes me feel affection, nothing interests me intellectually, nothing makes me anything positive deeply at all. The only emotions I can feel the 'fullness' of, as you put it, are negative ones.

    While theoretically I think it better to feel nothing than to feel negative things, the brain doesn't seem to work like that. We're programmed to seek sufficient stimulation of the brain, and if it's in any way understimulated, a frantic searching begins, in which something negative is deemed superior to nothing. This isn't unique in psychology: many children prefer to get themselves punished for some kind of attention than to be ignored. Our ancient ancestors wouldn't have lasted long or learned well if they allowed themselves to be effectively invisible and easily forgotten as children, so that makes perfect sense, too.

    If you're starving and the only food available is something too hot and that you're allergic to, promising both immediate displeasure and future displeasure, it's going to be hard to resist eating it anyway. Could you be said to be 'getting pleasure' from or 'enjoying' inflicting pain on yourself in that situation? That could be perception of people observing the behaviour, if they weren't aware of the hunger or maybe had never felt hunger. And a craving of equal power is the attraction to negativity when in certain kinds of mood.

    And as thoughts of food are going to distract you and relentlessly re-enter your mind whether you want them to or not, the brain will not let you forget that it needs something, and keeps throwing at you examples of what it wants. What it wants, for its own probably chemical or bloodflow-related reasons, is misery. Fighting those thoughts is very difficult and causes more stress, so counter-intuitively to people who don't experience this, 'wallowing', or passively allowing your mind to entertain those thoughts as they arise and flow, is experienced as the least painful of the options. It helps give the brain the level of stimulation it seeks without causing excessive fluctuations or rapid changes in its delicate balance. Thinking about happy things either has no emotional impact at all, or causes a spike in unhappiness because their remoteness and ineffectiveness is disturbing and fuels the sense of hopelessness.

  4. #34
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    lets see her I'm depressed when shitty things are happening in my life that I have no control over and they always seem to pile up. so when thinks are bad they're really bad. But when things are going well I'm happy and I enjoy life so i wouldn't say i'm depressed all the time. but the few times I've been truly depressed is one when my brother was suicidal, when my friend was in and out the hospital and all my other friends had moved away. first three years of college before i made friends and when my ex room mate attempted suicide. watching my grandma succumb to alzheimer's hmmm fucking up my gpa (ok that last one was my fault). Sorry if during those times I wasn't fucking happy, but would you be? I wouldn't say I was depressed depressed but all those people were people who were close to me. I really hate when people say that I'm being emo when shit like that is going on, I'm like excuse me!! you fucking bitch if you had a fucking clue you would realize I'm depressed not because I want to be but because what I'm depressed about is out of my control. I can't cure them. And I can try to stop someone from comitting suicide and if someone really want to, I'm useless their aswell. but i out of my fucking control. I can't stop people from moving away.

    I mean if I conversations with most people didn't want me to give myself a lobotomy I might have made friends sooner.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    lets see her I'm depressed when shitty things are happening in my life that I have no control over and they always seem to pile up. so when thinks are bad they're really bad. But when things are going well I'm happy and I enjoy life so i wouldn't say i'm depressed all the time. but the few times I've been truly depressed is one when my brother was suicidal, when my friend was in and out the hospital and all my other friends had moved away. first three years of college before i made friends and when my ex room mate attempted suicide. watching my grandma succumb to alzheimer's hmmm fucking up my gpa (ok that last one was my fault). Sorry if during those times I wasn't fucking happy, but would you be? I wouldn't say I was depressed depressed but all those people were people who were close to me. I really hate when people say that I'm being emo when shit like that is going on, I'm like excuse me!! you fucking bitch if you had a fucking clue you would realize I'm depressed not because I want to be but because what I'm depressed about is out of my control. I can't cure them. And I can try to stop someone from comitting suicide and if someone really want to, I'm useless their aswell. but i out of my fucking control. I can't stop people from moving away.

    I mean if I conversations with most people didn't want me to give myself a lobotomy I might have made friends sooner.
    I think this is normal and different from the OP. Yea, people get depressed when bad stuff happens. Sometimes so depressed they need help, but then move on. And yeah, people do say stupid stuff when people are looking for help and you know what? I'm going to say its the people who say stupid stuff are the ones too busy working on their issues from 20 years ago and haven't found a way to move on yet, they can't sympathize with you because they are too busy focusing on their own issues.

    Its very different imo to remain or seek out depression/morbid topics when you don't have to, in order to get some to some place spiritually or emotionally. I think its pretty destructive to the person actually.

  6. #36
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    I've never felt this way.

    Figure out who/how you want to be, or at least some part of it, and works towards that. Remember your strengths, everyone has flaws/non-strengths. Find things that bring oyu joy, meaning, purpose, happiness, enjoyment, and do them. Avoid things that suck ass or "steal things from you against your will." Feel gratitude

    Work on that most non-INFP of skills, developing realistic expectations.
    This seems so simple, but it's really the best advice I've read in here. You have to remember that YOU have control over your mind and thoughts - they do not control you. You can choose to focus on all that is bad, or you can try and see the positives as a light in the tunnel. Everyone wallows sometimes, and that's okay, but at some point you have to move forward.

    It's important for INFPs to see their differences from everyone else as strengths, and to know they are capable of doing many things, and are NOT handicapped by their emotions or their overall personality.


    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything but it seems (and this is from my observations of FPs in the MBTI world) to me that FPs wear their emotional scars like soldiers wear medals and ribbons.
    Not to point fingers either, but I see this more with EFPs. IRL, IxFPs are not going to discuss their wounds with just anyone. I mentioned in another thread how my ESFP sister will go on and on about her depression/anxiety/whatever, and this prompted a mutual friend to say that I see so calm and balanced and must never get down .

    Sometimes, even my ISFJ mom gives much more comfort to my sister because I do present such a more solid front when I am going through something difficult. I think that's why a lot of INFP seem whiny online, they are venting anonymously - IRL, they suck it all in and seem pretty stoic externally.

    I don't enjoy feeling my emotional turmoil and I don't understand why anyone would enjoy feeling it or wallowing in it. The way I think of it is there's this dark cave with skeletons littered everywhere. There's a foul smell coming from it. There are signs warning you not to go in that cave. You have just as much of a chance of becoming one of those skeletons laying on the ground as emerging victoriously from the cave. If you do emerge from the cave, you're more than likely to be traumatized in some way from what you experienced.
    Fi-doms don't compartmentalize their emotions, because they're almost inseparable from them as a person. Fe seems more focused on others and group harmony (which can mean ignoring those feelings, by sticking them in a "cave"), but Fi is centered on knowing itself. If a Fi-dom tries to hide their feelings away in some cave, that is not a constructive way for them to deal with those feelings. The cave is going to blow at some point.

    Learning to "heal" themselves is how a Fi-dom learns to heal others also. Fi understands other people by understanding itself. A Fi-dom who cannot heal may be one stuck in the Fi Si loop - fearing nothing can change because of how the past has been. Fi works best with an operating Ne, not over-depending on that tertiary function.

    It is also important that a Fi-dom has an outlet for feelings they have trouble dealing with or expressing. This is why the arts are something many INFPs pursue. It's funny to look back on the crappy poetry I wrote when I was a teenager, and just how dramatic some of it was. That side of me was not one that anyone actually saw though.

    I don't need to touch fire to know that it burns. I don't need to have scalding burns and blistering skin to fully experience every nook and cranny of pain.
    Fi doesn't need to either when it engages its aux function. Actually, I'd argue that INFPs especially don't need to experience something first hand to know it. Ne provides a sort of metaphorical application of past feelings to understand seemingly unrelated experiences. It may be an INFP stuck in their Fi Si loop that is only trusting their past experience.

    I notice that SPs are the ones who tend to only trust their own first-hand experience. I got into an argument with my ESFP sister on this very topic - she told me I couldn't understand something because it had never happened to me, and I said I don't need to experience something to understand it. The downside of that is an INFP can trust theory more than reality....another reason it is important for an INFP to get out of their head sometimes and get some perspective (INTPs fall into that trap also).

    And often to me it seems like people who seek these types of emotional experiences tend to carry a lot of baggage from their journeys. What is wrong with being free and uncluttered and learning vicariously through others?
    I agree with this also....and I think I covered it above. This is how an INFP should operate when healthy, IMO.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  7. #37
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    Once there was a girl in middle school on a quest to become unique and deep. In her search, she became quite moody, irritable, and whiney, and insisted she had reason to be this way (but didn't admit it was because she liked feeling that way). My name is Bubbles, and I am a former unhealthy 4w3.

    I think the problem is when people wallow too deep. It's fine to read or watch intriguing material and to learn from it or empathize with it, but I also think there's a danger in getting too invested. For me, I channel it into something useful, like writing, or a conversation with someone about the darker tones of everyday life. Also I've learned to let my emotions out like a faucet. If I'm sad, I can't stop myself from crying. If I'm upset, I deal with it and then POOF, it's gone. Tada.

    Emotions are messy, and deserve to be sorted through, but they can tax you if you let them leech off you too much. Do something with them, don't just stare them in the face and say "huh how depressing is this?" Movement brings about change.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  8. #38
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    It's fine to read or watch intriguing material and to learn from it or empathize with it, but I also think there's a danger in getting too invested.
    That reminds me of a quote from High Fidelity:
    "What came first, the music or the misery?"

    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  9. #39
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    That reminds me of a quote from High Fidelity:
    "What came first, the music or the misery?"

    Far more important than chicken and the egg.
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