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  1. #81
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    [...]

    This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

    On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care. They feel abandoned. [...]
    Great post!

    I wouldn't quite phrase it as "because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation." I would more say "because the solution to the situation has to be consistent with the individual in order to be effective." If the solution is externally imposed, you end up either acting in conflict with your values (big problem for Fi) or doing a half-hearted job (which is just a waste of time and energy).

    At times the over-helpfulness of INFJs feels a bit like having a clumsy if well meaning bull in your own, personal china shop. "Well, why you don't just move this..." (crash) "...and then put this here..." (thump). "Isn't that better? I don't know why you didn't do that before! If you wouldn't be so resistant we could have gotten this done a long time ago!"

    Then you see the INFJ's surprise as you peevishly escort them off your value premises. The funny thing is the INFJ may not realize that there were premises and that they crashed through a fence, front door and knocked over a table on their way to help (for your own good). Sometimes it can feel like the INFJ wants to improve you for selfish reasons: because it's like irritating grit for the INFJ otherwise.

    Sometimes it seems like an ideal friendship to an INFP is like living next door to an acquaintance. You have an open invitation to ring the doorbell (call ahead, when possible, please) but if the other person isn't home or isn't answering, it's not big deal. When you are let in to an INFPs emotional space, you treat it as an honor and show you value the friendship by not touching things without invitation, because you assume they've already invested a lot of time and energy to get things into the shape they are in. Friendship to an INFJ seems more like moving into a commune. There is no personal emotional property once you've let them into your life. Everything is a potential fixer-upper.

    All teasing aside, I tend to tell people I neither give or take advice well. When someone does actually want advice and explicitly asks for it, usually it's a matter of finding the solution they already know on some level. At most, it is making suggestions that are consistent with their values and wants that still meet the external requirements of the situation. Other than that, about the only other thing I feel I can add is my perceptions of the situation, especially if the person asking for advice isn't emotionally clued in already.

    Anyway, I hope the INFJs don't mind the teasing. Don't know why this topic brings it out in me.

  2. #82
    Rubber Nipple Salesperson ladypinkington's Avatar
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    Wow- interesting to see what I can do to be a better friend for INFP's.

    The areas of hardship in friendship I have come across with INFP's
    is that I do love people wanting to look into your soul and know who you are- and INFP's don't seem to want to partake of those kind of conversations much.

    I want them to investigate me and ask me questions and they don't seem to want to ask questions and especially not want to answer about their feelings about things and what is going on inside. They seem to want to "just be" and want you "just be", I think the Calvin Klein perfume is marketed to INFP's,lol.

    It is like I get offended at the thought of someone enjoying my company but not wanting to know anything about me and my inner soul and they get offended that I can't enjoy their company without wanting to look into their inner soul,lol. Fi vs Fe of course.

    I think the main thing is is that INFP's can reach a level of closeness easier with me then I can with them. For me there are many complicated levels and I want the person to graduate the levels and things need to keep moving or things will fizzle out for me- with the INFP there is only a couple of levels and you have beaten the emotional relational game and are golden and everything else is bonus points,lol.

    Also I get frustrated with INFP's when they don't fight for what they want. I am very determined and very take life by the horns and if you want to do something do it- if it means something to you then say it- action!
    If an INFP is dating a J especially then they tend to do everything the J wants in the relationship and nothing they want to do and will break things off with and not follow through in promises or plans and that is so devastating to another J friend and hard for a friend to watch. I hate to see someone miss out especially when they desperately want something and love something- I think the INFP can be too selfless at times. Be more selfish,lol.

    I love INFP's and I especially love their humor and sharing humor with them and being happy go lucky and unleashing the inner child with them. I love the artsy fartsyness and the characters they are.

    I need to learn what to expect with INFP's and how to adjust accordingly and how to be better friends and people to them- especially when it comes to meaningful relationships with them.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    Wow- interesting to see what I can do to be a better friend for INFP's.

    The areas of hardship in friendship I have come across with INFP's
    is that I do love people wanting to look into your soul and know who you are- and INFP's don't seem to want to partake of those kind of conversations much.

    I want them to investigate me and ask me questions and they don't seem to want to ask questions and especially not want to answer about their feelings about things and what is going on inside. They seem to want to "just be" and want you "just be", I think the Calvin Klein perfume is marketed to INFP's,lol.

    It is like I get offended at the thought of someone enjoying my company but not wanting to know anything about me and my inner soul and they get offended that I can't enjoy their company without wanting to look into their inner soul,lol. Fi vs Fe of course.

    I think the main thing is is that INFP's can reach a level of closeness easier with me then I can with them. For me there are many complicated levels and I want the person to graduate the levels and things need to keep moving or things will fizzle out for me- with the INFP there is only a couple of levels and you have beaten the emotional relational game and are golden and everything else is bonus points,lol.

    Also I get frustrated with INFP's when they don't fight for what they want. I am very determined and very take life by the horns and if you want to do something do it- if it means something to you then say it- action!
    If an INFP is dating a J especially then they tend to do everything the J wants in the relationship and nothing they want to do and will break things off with and not follow through in promises or plans and that is so devastating to another J friend and hard for a friend to watch. I hate to see someone miss out especially when they desperately want something and love something- I think the INFP can be too selfless at times. Be more selfish,lol.

    I love INFP's and I especially love their humor and sharing humor with them and being happy go lucky and unleashing the inner child with them.
    I need to learn what to expect with INFP's and how to adjust accordingly and how to be better friends and people to them- especially when it comes to meaningful relationships with them.
    Stop sucking up...you're embarrassing me.


  4. #84
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post

    It is like I get offended at the thought of someone enjoying my company but not wanting to know anything about me and my inner soul and they get offended that I can't enjoy their company without wanting to look into their inner soul,lol. Fi vs Fe of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Sometimes it seems like an ideal friendship to an INFP is like living next door to an acquaintance. You have an open invitation to ring the doorbell (call ahead, when possible, please) but if the other person isn't home or isn't answering, it's not big deal. When you are let in to an INFPs emotional space, you treat it as an honor and show you value the friendship by not touching things without invitation, because you assume they've already invested a lot of time and energy to get things into the shape they are in. Friendship to an INFJ seems more like moving into a commune. There is no personal emotional property once you've let them into your life. Everything is a potential fixer-upper.
    I have very strong Fi for an INTJ, but I completely relate to the INFJs here (esp. LP's quoted part) and I have the same irritations with the INFPs.

    Either I am abnormal for an Fi user, or the issue is not much to do with Fe but rather denying the INxJ information to explore, which is denying the INxJ the opportunity to be themselves.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  5. #85
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I have very strong Fi for an INTJ, but I completely relate to the INFJs here (esp. LP's quoted part) and I have the same irritations with the INFPs.

    Either I am abnormal for an Fi user, or the issue is not much to do with Fe but rather denying the INxJ information to explore, which is denying the INxJ the opportunity to be themselves.
    Personally I'm all about getting inside the inner world of others and seeing where they're coming from and what makes them tick. But I also do respect their privacy (possibly too much at times) and hate to think I might be prying. So I try to make it as easy and natural for confiding to take place as possible, and leave it at that. They'll tell me when they're ready is my motto, mostly. And if they don't tell me, they probably have a good reason.

    As for my "house", the doorbell is often unanswered to all comers for long periods of time. That's just the way it is. When it's answered, I think I'm fairly ok with suggestions and critique on interior decoration, and people making themselves at home. But at the end of the day I guess I want friends who are able, if necessary, to say "Even though this place is a mess and possibly a biohazard, and the layout of the furniture may cripple someone some day, I still want to hang out here." Oversimplistic, but generally apt.

  6. #86
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    ^^ Yes, exactly! (to JivingJeffJones's post)


    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    Wow- interesting to see what I can do to be a better friend for INFP's.

    The areas of hardship in friendship I have come across with INFP's
    is that I do love people wanting to look into your soul and know who you are- and INFP's don't seem to want to partake of those kind of conversations much.
    I definitely want to partake in those kind of conversations, but it takes a lot of hanging out time with someone to get there. I know how you feel, though. My best INFP friend from college is more introverted than I am. I swear you have to hang out with him for a week before you can get any communication about anything personal from him (my INFJ friend has the same complaint about me). Nonetheless, those personal conversations are very nourishing... just not something I can jump right into. A lot of defenses have to go down first. Banging on the door demanding to be let in doesn't speed that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    [...]
    It is like I get offended at the thought of someone enjoying my company but not wanting to know anything about me and my inner soul and they get offended that I can't enjoy their company without wanting to look into their inner soul,lol. Fi vs Fe of course.
    [...]
    Again, I think this is partially a difference of timing. I am interested in what's going on in others, too, especially those I care about. INFPs are kind of more like cats: territorial, extremely indirect at first, and likely to be offended if you get in their face and slobber all over them first thing. INFJs are more like dogs... after a little butt-sniffing they are ready to romp.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post

    I think the main thing is is that INFP's can reach a level of closeness easier with me then I can with them. For me there are many complicated levels and I want the person to graduate the levels and things need to keep moving or things will fizzle out for me- with the INFP there is only a couple of levels and you have beaten the emotional relational game and are golden and everything else is bonus points,lol.
    Aha! We are just too easy for you guys! I see how you are!

    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    [...]
    I need to learn what to expect with INFP's and how to adjust accordingly and how to be better friends and people to them- especially when it comes to meaningful relationships with them.
    This whole thread has been really eye-opening for me, personally. Having my Fe short-comings revealed is a little painful. It makes me much more aware that you can't say nothing in Fe terms. Not saying anything or withdrawal (both perfectly natural and often neutral for an INFP) can be interpreted as "I'm angry with you" or "I don't care about you." Bowing out of what seem to us like empty social gestures and events can communicate the same thing.
    Last edited by Seymour; 11-09-2009 at 11:36 AM. Reason: Added agreement with JJJ.

  7. #87
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I have very strong Fi for an INTJ, but I completely relate to the INFJs here (esp. LP's quoted part) and I have the same irritations with the INFPs.

    Either I am abnormal for an Fi user, or the issue is not much to do with Fe but rather denying the INxJ information to explore, which is denying the INxJ the opportunity to be themselves.
    You did mension about it possibly being more an Ni dom vs Fi dom and I think that may be the case here. Possible improvements vs "it's mine, I like it how it is". The only difference between INFJ and INTJ, I'm thinking, is the method of poking for the change rather than wanting to see the change to begin with. Your Fi is your tertiary so it's less central to you and more of an escape.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  8. #88
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    For me there are many complicated levels and I want the person to graduate the levels and things need to keep moving or things will fizzle out for me- with the INFP there is only a couple of levels and you have beaten the emotional relational game and are golden and everything else is bonus points,lol.
    Well, I may let a person in these couple of levels that you mentioned, but it's not that they've figure me out, I simply won't let anyone closer than that.
    My emotions and my inner world are my own, and I feel no need to share them with others.

    I'm always willing to listen to others though, but I'm definitely not likely to show initiative.

  9. #89
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    I think Seymour and JivinJeffJones explained some points pretty well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ladypinkington View Post
    I think the main thing is is that INFP's can reach a level of closeness easier with me then I can with them. For me there are many complicated levels and I want the person to graduate the levels and things need to keep moving or things will fizzle out for me- with the INFP there is only a couple of levels and you have beaten the emotional relational game and are golden and everything else is bonus points,lol.
    That's interesting...I get accused of being guarded and closed off by people, more in-line with the first parts of your post. I don't get attached to people easily. I also get frustrated when a relationship becomes stagnant. This is why I consider very few people to be "real friends".

    I think the INFP method of healing may confuse people into thinking we feel a lot for them (I have this problem in inspiring unrequited romantic attachment in others). I will often say things which sound very personal (by most people's standards) in order to create a sense of trust so that a person opens up in turn, but these revelations, in reality, are not scratching the surface of my deepest feelings. It comes from my desire to help others emotionally when I can, not because I care for an individual personally.

    I do want to "share my soul" and all that jazz, but as other posters have said, it takes a great amount of trust to get there, and most people never will.

    Also I get frustrated with INFP's when they don't fight for what they want. I am very determined and very take life by the horns and if you want to do something do it- if it means something to you then say it- action!
    I always, always, always fight for what I believe in. There's a good chance you don't know what is really important to these INFPs. Our values are often not what most other people value. Community ideas of "success" are often not important to us, or at least not enough to violate other values to get there.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #90
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of the few INFJs I've casually known, I'd say what annoys me is:

    - Overly formal, stiff way of talking/writing sometimes. It can seem very pretentious. Actually, INFJs can seem very pretentious, period. INFPs seem a little more light-hearted, but keep in mind this is coming from me, and I know I can seem somewhat contrived at times.

    - INFJs can seem rather non-committal to large ideas, yet quick to judge on things which seem trivial to me. Their values seem too fluid & dependent on the external for my tastes. As mentioned, it can make them seem like they jump on and off bandwagons of ideas that seem, er, rather ridiculous and not very well-developed.

    Being flexible on small things and having a strong, solid foundation of principles makes sense to me, as an INFP....I don't want to change with the wind on my basic moral tenants, which are well thought-out before solidified, not adopted arbitrarily. INFPs are said to be truth-seekers, and INFJs seem more like idea-seekers.

    - INFJs can seem intolerant. Because their values seem to be more tied with community standards, I suppose they feel some justification in expressing these opinions. I think INFPs are the most tolerant type, although not the least judgmental. The ability to hear and accept many different viewpoints without abandoning our own principles seems like the epitome of tolerance to me. (We talked about this on INFPgc, if this sounds familiar to anyone who posts there also).

    - The INFJ forum is sooooo boring. If INFPgc seem whiny, that place seems like a big snooze fest. INFPs seem so much more playful and whimsical. It's hard to see the side of INFJs that isn't overly serious, but I know it IS there.

    And after saying all that, I rather like most INFJs I come across.
    infjs who don't get out and challenge themselves may rely on community standards for their Fe sense of right. but ultimately our values are designed to protect ourselves from our perceived weaknesses and deficiencies. my intj is constantly reprimanding me for coming across as rude to the esfj salespeople we interact with when apartment shopping, or a cashier, or ____. i'm not unkind (rude probably denotes cultural crudeness/brutishness), but i do not like having to put up a front if i find the game's interaction to be rotten at the core.

    we are judgy in the sense that we, like intjs (and intps) are HIGHLY impatient. this is a principal source of social frustration, and why we seem so j. fucking hurry up and let's get going! we run at a quicker rate and get burnt out more easily than infps, which makes us act like pricks sometimes.

    infps (that i know) are often more naturally slothlike and comfort-craving. i binge on everything, which includes comfort. i need to go fast and get more. they take it slower, more easy, as it comes. they do not rush (and it is more damaging for them to do so than for infjs, who also need to slow down!). infps are self-absorbed but so are infjs, it is just in a different way. i will see people as numbers, letters, language, symbols, ideas, representatives. infp will see people as selves, subjective experiences, personal histories, stories, motivations, etc. but we both get lost in our own worlds. really the Fi is selfish slogan should be re-named e4 and e8 are selfish. 4w5, 5w4/3w4, and 9w8/7w8, and all 8s. we create the strongest sense of entitlement. Fi just relates everything to its own experiences, and some Fi types don't perform enough error checking to imagine what the others are experiencing, recognize they are their own subjective creatures, etc. just like infj types often judge the fuck out of others well before they turn that judgment inwards and realize that most of what they say, too, is a paradoxical crock-a-shit.

    advanced infjs spend an entire life exploring questions of truth. i don't think i will ever believe in any conception of truth beyond pragmatism, buddhism, mysticism, poetry, and imagination. it's just using language to get at things that are so complex. my inner mappings of Ni are where i create my highest insights, just as infp Fi is where they do most of their organization, arranging, weighing, trying to create fluidity and movement of value and holism out of fractured and fragmentary subjective experiences and feeling-tones attached like post-it-notes. what is real to us is our own inner vision of the world, which we know can change more drastically with new information. bc we are tied to INFORMATION more than we are tied to specific judgments of what that information means. those things are anything but fixed, so we trust our ability to process information well, to perceive, to view, to represent, to use language-systems to understand the world as well as can be done. trying to get to the limit of what we can say (which is a judgment process), so that we may be able to see over the wall of that which cannot be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I think Seymour touched on the tendency to sign up for various causes and then abandon them once they find the holes in it. I wonder why they didn't consider it more carefully to begin with, but I suppose they just like to try ideas on.

    I realize that may be their process of finding external values which suit them (and that these may be immature people), but to an INFP, it can seem rather frivolous.

    I think this is an area in which you can tell INFJs are dominant perceivers. Supposedly, INFPs are less "organized", but that's only externally.
    we feel like you infps are too slow at trying out new ideas. you hold your values too fixedly in place like an anchor, whereas we lose our values like socks and hats and things that are never where you thought you had lost put them.

    also, being an N dom, we can easily see phantom connections, sense rain that does not come, imagine a highly distorted reality.

    in fact, i find one of the major issues for both types is just straight up accuracy. our iNtuitive imagined perceptions can be way off the mark, and the F only makes us more (superficially) erratic/complexly holistic. it makes us get a sense of a wide range of relationships but rarely pinpoint the specific relationships to double-check for accuracy in our judgments. so the whole float can get majorly fucked up and skewed. Fi dom takes longer to let an idea work into its perception and connect new threads to its value framework that might change the equatorial balance. Ni must symbolize ideas into its own framework, and while these symbols are rather picky and exist in a very specific language-game that might be totally off-base, as symbols they can change much quicker. but it can be very disillusioning or relieving when this happens.

    i suggest that the infj forums may not be quite so infj as they suggest. plus many infjs (like infps) are in a somewhat broken phase (think a 1992 ford taurus that needs a new transmission). i think their are a lot of infjs and infps who are isfjs and isfps. but equally important, there are many N types with no development of their imaginative faculties, who end up offering no valuable perceptual insight. we're all only as good as the discourse we participate within. nothing comes from outside of that fabric.

    i personally don't find the mass of infps all that interesting, just like you don't find many infjs all that interesting. i at least relate to the infj profile, life story, etc, like you do, which feels good. but in the end, i relate to enneagram types just as strongly as mb types, and i relate to well-developed N no matter what type.

    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The major problem I tend to have revolves around the INFJ doorslam. I'm a troubled person, I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone on this board. I have a lot of problems. Being an INFP, these have emotional consequences which I try to keep from others (irl at least), but with close friends who probe it just isn't possible (and INFJs probe a lot). Being "real" about yourself even when it's ugly is a huge part of intimacy for INFPs. The biggest. My problem with INFJs is that this kind of realness exposes my troubles, and then they get really invested in trying to fix me. I appreciate the concern, and the effort. I really do. But, for reasons not clear to me but almost certainly my fault, their solutions tend to either not work or not stick. Then they get disappointed and upset, and eventually frustrated/resentful. They keep picking at you until it gets to the point where neither of you can relax in the other's presence. Then the INFJ doorslam. Thus I've found the only way to maintain a degree of friendship with them is to not be real with them. Keep them out. Obviously they pick up on this. This has all been based on my experience with only a few INFJs, so I'm not really sure how true-to-type it is.

    So I guess it boils down to what I perceive as the ongoing conditionality of their friendship. I don't think it's an unreasonable quality to have -- in fact it makes perfect sense. But for me once a friendship passes a certain point it's pretty much irrevocable. I'm 80% sure I'd help a genuine friend bury a body, even if I spent the next 50 years trying to convince them to turn themselves in. That is what it is -- I don't think it's a virtue. I'm sure it isn't, actually.

    Thinking about it some more, with the INFJ friendships I've had the "being real" process has seemed to me to be a one-way street. I share with them, they use what I share to try to fix me. They don't share back, unless it's in the form of "this is how I learned the lesson of why you should do this". I'm not saying that if I share something personal with you then you owe me something personal back. But when there seems to be a blatant pattern of one-sidedness to this unveiling of self then I have to wonder at the dynamic of the friendship. Often it seems to me that these confessions serve simply to give them leverage to tell me how to live my life. Which makes me wonder if they're really friends at all, or simply a kind of roaming developmental paramedic. So I guess I've never really felt that close to INFJs.

    There are other things which irk revolving mostly around typical Fe/Fi differences, but those are the biggest for me personally.

    Edit: nothing in this post is based on any forum INFJs.
    what you've said is obviously well thought out. infjs hold back a lot, sometimes for fear/anxiety of what will happen with said participation, and sometimes because they are unsure of how they will be received. it is future-focused (protecting the future by avoiding fuckups). feeling like the other person is hearing them in EXACTLY the right way is soooo crucial for an infj to disclose important details that involve vulnerability. i only speak these things when a) i'm with someone who gets me (rare!) or b) i feel so fucking sky-high open that i love everyone and will sow my seeds freely with everyone. sometimes we will be a bit strategic, too, and disclose to promote someone else opening up to us. but we do see potential that we want to set free. my interest in setting people free is almost exclusively focused on people who i value, whose insight and talents i recognize as helpful to the people like me of this world. i'll listen to those who i meet and know and become acquainted with and try to help, but serious and difficult problems with additional energies expended are reserved for the people who are special to me. i have many infp friends and a couple of enfj friends who can frequently require more energy expended than they give back in return. but i like them. they have much to offer me and others like me. i want to get them back on track, which, as i think you recognize, sometimes means nothing more than i want to catalyze the process and speed it up (which may be not only unnecessary but unhelpful). sometimes with infps you want to reiterate over and over and repeat until they have to address what you say. same with intps. break the fused judgments and allow them to expand with Ne, to evolve, etc. but it takes time and we need to recognize this. we need time apart too bc suffering of others we care about is very disturbing to us and we are not nearly as in-touch with the process of internal emotional purification/photosynthesis as infps bc we do not have experience cleaning our judgments and allowing them to be re-planted and re-populated in better soil. we don't recognize the process half as well as infps do.

    there's a huge cathartic epiphanic shocking revelatory experience for infps who free themselves and whose Ne just causes a huge evolution. like a hesse novel. or like soaring neutral milk hotel epiphanies. i like to be part of the process where we both help each other move forward and experience those moments that capture the very best of our gifts.

    i get frustrated with infps for being slow moving with value transformations, but openly admit that i love their steadfastness, their ability to fight resistance and stay true to their values (true of those who have made serious work of their lives and developed deeply inspiring/aesthetic/wise values). i get too easily threatened/budged/distracted/distorted by the input/impressions of others. i hear everyone well when centered, but a downside to this is that i feel naked to their true thoughts about me and i have less shielded layer to protect myself against their onslaughts bc they are what i hear more than myself. then there is the additional w4 facet, which infp 4w5s know all too well what it is like to perceive these differences as defects and be envious of others who are free of a sometimes debilitating self-critique.

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