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[NF] INFJ/INFP Points of Contention

Lauren

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Dec 7, 2008
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255
MBTI Type
INFP
I'm glad if that's helpful!

For me, I also find that conversation/interaction stimulates a thought process (which may be negative or positive). It's like there's a delayed reaction to most interactions I have with people. That can be frustrating to a person when they see seemingly unconnected behaviour with the present interaction (either warmer or cooler). In the INFJs person's mind though, it is just the natural response to the last interaction and seems perfectly normal.

During the intervening time, I have usually generated several possibilities for why the person has acted as they did. I need further conversation or interaction to know if I am correct or out to lunch. It either requires further thought then, or if my thoughts were correct, it can be put to rest completely and I will have decided on a course of action.

Unfortunately, this seems to the other person like I am being nitpicky, oversensitive, or holding onto things for far too long that they figure I should be able to get over sooner. I find this especially annoys T types, followed by INFPs.

This need for reflection also is a good reason why it is not wise to rush INFJs on coming to a conclusion/decision/resolution before they have all the loose ends tied up. Otherwise it will continue getting revisited until they are satisfied. That really blindsides the other party involved because they thought they had gotten everything straightened out and decided. It usually results in a bad reaction from the other party which makes the INFJ feel rejected/angry/hurt and sparks another spate of action/reaction/thought.

I find that I also go away to think things over. I'm very comfortable with uncertainty. I don't rush my INFJ friend into a conclusion about a sensitive topic between the two of us. I trust that because we're friends, it will all work out. For me, if someone is my friend, I mean that, body and soul. I don't care about being right. I know who I am. I care about the relationship and if I need to apologize, forgive, listen a little longer, consider, ruminate, I hope my good friends will understand and hang in there with me. The INFJs I've known have understood, I think, that I understand their need to think things through. My INFJ friend will also want to help me sort things out and will want me to see what she feels is obvious. I always appreciate that and take her advice to heart. But, I know my own mind and I'm not always looking for a solution, just some understanding or reflection or acknowledgement that some things don't fit the mold. It's hard for my INFJ friend to conceive that there isn't a tried and true solution. That's why I go inside myself (and leave others out of it) to decide which course to take. I don't like to burden the people I care for.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
If you would only say, "hey, this is how I am feeling today but I care for you and will call or text when I am feeling in the mood." I would be fine. I wouldn't be left feeling like I did some awful thing to make you hate me. While I understand how you feel intuitively (trust me I could feel those vibes even if you were on the moon) I cannot understand logically unless you tell me verbally.

I'm not sure if I would understand myself verbally or logically. Immediately, that is. My logic follows behind as well, and when I feel like doing something, I might not be able to verbalize it to myself either. Then I think about it and decide what it was. Like, now I visited a friend who lives quite far from me, and there was a certain atmosphere during the time I was there. I still don't know if it was me, her, or just some general thing that doesn't have anything to do with us. I didn't mention it, and probably wont, because this is just a hunch. I can't logically see where it is coming from. It was just something I was aware of.

How do any of you ever get married and have children..? What I mean is do you ever pursue a person you care for? Or are you willing let love go if that person doesn't pursue you? Or does INFP just not give a shit about me. Or maybe, just maybe.. I am not seeing things the way you see them....

It's more like I've got faith in life. I don't think that I should take anything from life by force. Pursuing is "making it happen" while I want it to just happen. Kinda like good things come to those who wait, except that I am not waiting (in the way that "I now lack something and am waiting for it". It's not like that). It's like, if there is a person I like, I trust that things will evolve as far as they will, and if that doesn't suit me, then there's not much that could be done because that's as far as they can evolve.

I don't know, though... if there is some sort of self-protection in this too. How would I know that? Maybe by pursuing I would get further with my plans, but just make up the excuse to not pursue in order to keep myself less involved with whatever I pursue, and thus making it easier for me to not get what I pursue. If this is the case, then I am really thinking of myself as someone who doesn't deserve the things other people get.
 

Lauren

New member
Joined
Dec 7, 2008
Messages
255
MBTI Type
INFP
I'm not sure if I would understand myself verbally or logically. Immediately, that is. My logic follows behind as well, and when I feel like doing something, I might not be able to verbalize it to myself either. Then I think about it and decide what it was. Like, now I visited a friend who lives quite far from me, and there was a certain atmosphere during the time I was there. I still don't know if it was me, her, or just some general thing that doesn't have anything to do with us. I didn't mention it, and probably wont, because this is just a hunch. I can't logically see where it is coming from. It was just something I was aware of.



It's more like I've got faith in life. I don't think that I should take anything from life by force. Pursuing is "making it happen" while I want it to just happen. Kinda like good things come to those who wait, except that I am not waiting (in the way that "I now lack something and am waiting for it". It's not like that). It's like, if there is a person I like, I trust that things will evolve as far as they will, and if that doesn't suit me, then there's not much that could be done because that's as far as they can evolve.

I don't know, though... if there is some sort of self-protection in this too. How would I know that? Maybe by pursuing I would get further with my plans, but just make up the excuse to not pursue in order to keep myself less involved with whatever I pursue, and thus making it easier for me to not get what I pursue. If this is the case, then I am really thinking of myself as someone who doesn't deserve the things other people get.

I relate very much to what you say about not wanting to take anything by force. I'm very averse to too much pursuit of someone. But if I feel strongly about someone I will do certain things to make sure they know I'm interested. I understand that I can't just not do anything and expect someone to know that I like them and am attracted to them. I don't like to straight out tell someone that I like them--that's too dry for me. I like to show them, to have them pursue me because they don't exactly know what I'm thinking or feeling and they want to find out.
 

Serenes

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Oct 22, 2010
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75
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INFP
I think that's it for me with INFP friendships - I just don't know where I'm at and I'm not sure what the signs are when I am in. It seems to me that INFP friendships are always more on their terms. It's not that it's bad, because we have a fun time together and everything. It's just that I don't know that I could really count on them consistently or that things between us are as I perceive them. When they are going through something, they just disappear and I'm not sure how to help them or even where to find them in a sense. I think I'm relatively perceptive and a good listener and make a point of not offering very much advice to them, but still...

That's exactly how I feel about INFP friendships as well. It seems like we get along great, we have fun and everything but there's always some distance between us. They're not that great on follow-up. Maybe it's just me, expecting too much. I let them have their space but still...

If I'm constantly hanging out with someone and having a good time (talking a lot, laughing, being open, etc.) then they're probably 'in' my circle of friendship. Especially if it's usually one-on-one. For the most part, I tend to avoid & not spend time with people I dislike or am indifferent to. The way I express my care is by always trying to make the interactions between us harmonious & by spreading good feelings (like putting effort into making the experience fun, accommodating them, making them happy, listening, etc). I will be very giving to those I like and tend to put their needs above my own. So I think.. if it seems like we are putting effort into accommodating you and having a good time with you then we probably like you.

And because of wanting to spread good feelings with my friends.. when I'm having trouble & problems of my own, I tend to keep them to myself. This is usually because I don't want to express negativity and cause my friends to worry about me or affect them too. So despite how much of a good friend I may view someone... I may just end up disappearing or withdrawing for awhile to handle my own problems. I know that this may confuse friends.. but it could also be because sometimes from knowing their personalities, I already know how certain friends would react, and I don't think they can understand or help me anyways because it's something I have to get over myself. I wouldn't want to burden them with my own problems. It's also just Really scary to tell a friend something I am currently feeling very vulnerable about & I'm not sure if I could handle criticism or want them to view me differently as well. So until I've finished reflecting and come to terms or solved what it was, I may suddenly become somewhat distant but after I'd appear again as if nothing has happened and be happy again.... I guess that can cause misunderstandings among my friends, being perceived as not trusting them enough, caring, or w/e. But really, it's just something personal and has nothing to do with them. I'd appreciate a friend a lot, if they are still there and happy to have me back even after I've disappeared for awhile.

One thing I was just thinking about. My INFP friend doesn't seem to need interactions with someone to solve a problem as long as she has resolved it within herself. I, on the other hand, need the closure/input from the other person involved to feel that things are resolved. Maybe the significant factor is that Fe looks to others to find the answer and Fi looks to find the answer within itself.

This is why INFJs feel the need to try to help along those close to them that are in distress and is why they find it painful to see them floundering and seemingly doing nothing. It's because they feel there is an external solution and they also believe that talking about it will help the answer take shape. To an INFP this is pushy and ineffectual because no one can see inside them or truly understand their unique person/situation and therefore no one except themselves can really offer the answer.

On the other hand, INFPs tend to leave a person to their own devices and assume that they need to find the answer within themselves for it to really be solved. To an INFJ, this seems like indifference or a lack of care.

Yeah, even though I know someone may have good intentions.. if they kept trying to force their help on me, then I'd get somewhat annoyed and feel like they were trying to suffocate & change me, prying too much, or were disappointed in me perhaps. I'd usually be more receptive to advice and help if I chose to ask them for it in the first place (because then I'd be ready for their criticism or w/e).

I'm not sure about other INFPs... but if a friend specifically asked me for help, then I'd usually drop what I'm doing to support them. I'd visit a friend if they were horribly hurt or w/e too because I'd be happy if they had done that for me if I were in their situation. Some reasons why I wouldn't help may be because

1) How I perceive their personality.. they seem like they don't want to be bothered and can handle their problems on their own.
2) I don't feel that our relationship is close enough so my company may not be appreciated.
3) If the situation isn't urgent.. and I'm busy/have problems of my own that I have to deal with.. so because I'm currently in a bad mood/situation, I don't think my current company would be much help as I might just make it worse. (ex: I'm depressed about something.. and a friend invites me out, I'd probably decline because I won't be able to be as cheery and fun when I hang out with them & might vent and bring the mood down).

Personally for me... the best way is to be direct and honest about what you expect but not be forceful about it. I don't really like following expectations, but if a friend told me they felt cared for in a certain way.. I would keep that in mind, and if I really cared and liked them enough I would remember that and try to make them happy in the way they expressed.

If we don't know what your expectations are, we'd most likely just treat others how we'd want to be treated (which is sometimes being left alone & not having people be too nosy when we are feeling vulnerable unless asked).
 

iwakar

crush the fences
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It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.

And I mean a proper shock.

Those Fi/Fe threads that have started popping up seasonally are alien conflicts to me, but I have been able to apply some of the issues to my RL relationship at present. My S.O. has admitted to me (as I have the habit of showing him a number of the posts and discussions that take place here) that he suspects INFPs can be such underdogs in everyday that they try to compensate by being acerbic and sarcastic within the anonymity of the internet. He admits he's done it himself to let off steam. :shrug: I don't approve, but I can relate to his feelings of repression at times. My theory on the INFJs is that our Ti function is overrepresented online because we are (finally) able to take our time to exposit our ideas carefully and our very expressive faces do not translate textually. We can come off as pedantic robots. :nerd:

The Number 1 conflict in our relationship is unrelated. It is is his persistent desire to be comfortable/harmonious in order to be satisfied ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it") butting heads with my desire to be better/authentic ("It's always broke, let's fix it") in order to be satisfied. This is what drives each other crazy. :crazy: Only time will tell if it can be reconciled.
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
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It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.

With my good INFJ friend from college, we've certainly gotten along well over the years, but the whole Fi/Fe differences did help illustrate some points of misunderstanding we've had. It's been interesting to look back at how we have each flexed to keep the friendship going. I credit him with being understanding about my inconsistency (in particular, how I tend to go through periods of falling out of touch).

I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.

Plus, I do think certain types of conflict are exacerbated online... especially since we tend to focus on differences here. The conflicts are intensified since we lack the non-verbal contextual cues that signify tone and intent in the real world.
 

iwakar

crush the fences
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sx/sp
With my good INFJ friend from college, we've certainly gotten along well over the years, but the whole Fi/Fe differences did help illustrate some points of misunderstanding we've had. It's been interesting to look back at how we have each flexed to keep the friendship going. I credit him with being understanding about my inconsistency (in particular, how I tend to go through periods of falling out of touch).

I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.

Plus, I do think certain types of conflict are exacerbated online... especially since we tend to focus on differences here. The conflicts are intensified since we lack the non-verbal contextual cues that signify tone and intent in the real world.

Exactly and I do believe he is a Type 9 (and I'm a 4w5). Mind you, it's not confirmed. --That's my guess for him and my reading the description aloud to him from my book and him going, "Wow that sounds like me," but he hasn't taken the trouble to take the test.
 
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011235813

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The Number 1 conflict in our relationship is unrelated. It is is his persistent desire to be comfortable/harmonious in order to be satisfied ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it") butting heads with my desire to be better/authentic ("It's always broke, let's fix it") in order to be satisfied. This is what drives each other crazy. :crazy: Only time will tell if it can be reconciled.

I can totally relate. I used to work for my university's graphic design agency in my undergrad days and my boss was a textbook INFJ (and incidentally, the one who introduced me to the MBTI.) We get along extremely well and our dynamic at work was also excellent. We played off each other's energy and usually managed to come up with a bunch of creative, interesting ideas and concepts. The devil, however, was always in the details.

Once I had sketched out a concept, I worked in broad strokes, just slapping things on my canvas until it told the story I had in mind. I didn't really care that much if it wasn't not completely perfect so long as the general idea and inspiration came across effectively. That is definitely not how he worked. He'd go into a complete flap if everything wasn't exactly right and fret and fret and fret until he frayed his nerves to shreds and took mine with them. The worst thing was that he never seemed to know when it was right. He'd finally be satisfied with a poster design only to open up the raw file two hours later, stare at it blearily, and decide to start making a multitude of minuscule edits (that he frequently reversed!) all over again. I could understand his anxiety about releasing (abandoning?!) a design to the public gaze but I honestly think he took it way too far.

I love this guy and I loved brainstorming ideas with him but there comes a point when it's 3 AM and you haven't even started working on any of your homework, but you can't leave because your manager is still sitting glued to the office iMac, his tongue sticking out slightly as he painstakingly moves one letter pixel by pixel to the left, and you feel bad about ditching him, especially when he's giving you wounded puppy dog eyes. So you stay and nod and agree with whatever he's saying all the while hoping that it'll end soon, stagger back home a couple of hours later, somehow rush through whatever else you have to do, and the next day ... lather, rinse, repeat.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for this man's perseverance and dedication to excellence, but to this day, I shudder slightly the minute he opens his mouth to talk about kerning, while he goes through my portfolio, shakes his head, points at a badly-kerned letter, and mournfully intones "Sloppy."

Were our differences irreconciliable though? Not at all. I deeply appreciated that he cared enough not only about his own work but also about mine to want to make it better. This not something I ever got from any of the other managers. Knowing that made it much easier to be patient and compliant, not to mention the fact that we rarely, if ever, disagreed on core concepts.

ETA: We did have one massive argument (not job or design-related) that involved a direct attack on one of my core values. To my recollection, that's the only real fight we've had. I remember getting very upset and defensive, spewing out one poorly conceived argument after another, and growing steadily more infuriated as he sat there countering each one in a despicably calm fashion. We worked it out though. :D
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
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4w5
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sp/sx
I'm curious about you and your INFP's respective enneagram types. Certainly I value being authentic as an INFP, but I do understand the avoidance of conflict, too. I can't help but wonder if maybe he is a type 9, or some other conflict-avoidant enneatype.

Yeah, I thought 9 vs. 4 immediately when I read that.

It was not even until I joined this forum and then two others briefly that I discovered it was even possible for me to not get along with INFPs. The few that have been in my life have been so overwhelmingly positive that it was an enormous shock to discover it was possible to not get along.

And I mean a proper shock.

I don't know any INFJs IRL that I don't get along with either. Generally, I consider them an easy type to get along with.

Those Fi/Fe threads that have started popping up seasonally are alien conflicts to me, but I have been able to apply some of the issues to my RL relationship at present.

Most of my Fe issues are relegated to SFJs. Frankly, in those threads, I feel it's the Fe'ers who have more of a problem with Fi than vice versa. But then, I think FPs are much more used to adapting to Fe atmospheres.

My S.O. has admitted to me (as I have the habit of showing him a number of the posts and discussions that take place here) that he suspects INFPs can be such underdogs in everyday that they try to compensate by being acerbic and sarcastic within the anonymity of the internet. He admits he's done it himself to let off steam. :shrug: I don't approve, but I can relate to his feelings of repression at times.

Hm, I'm quite the opposite. I have to make a conscious effort to be kind, both on & offline. Well, I don't mean to imply there is an act, but I often stifle my gut reaction comments which can be sarcastic & biting, & my default demeanor is indifferent & aloof. I thought that was just a maturity issue though...I'm not an angsty teen anymore, & I try to be polite & make good impressions. I wouldn't call myself an underdog either, just low-key, and I (mostly) like it that way. If the acerbic side comes through online, its not a compensation issue so much as being relaxed a bit....of course, I still get accused of being argumentative in person, but in MBTI environments it fits in as mere analytical discussion that Ns are prone to.... I'm just rambling now...

My theory on the INFJs is that our Ti function is overrepresented online because we are (finally) able to take our time to exposit our ideas carefully and our very expressive faces do not translate textually. We can come off as pedantic robots. :nerd:

I find the tert-Ti of INFJs somewhat exaggerated actually. Sometimes I don't think they realize they are expressing feeling evaluations & not logical Ti analysis, and that may be what is annoying. Honestly, what mainly annoys me about INFJs online is the whole "we're so rare that most other INFJs online are phonies...except for me" attitude. The other annoying part is more about other people's perceptions of them being demi-gods or something.
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
If anything, I see more potential conflict on Ne/Ni. I'm starting to think that I have few ways to communicate with Ni. I mean, it's up to them if they want to, and I appreciate it. But I can't do anything myself.
 

Alchemilla

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Jan 5, 2011
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22
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INFJ
Okay, I'm reposting this from another forum, so be warned. This was a thread on "What pisses you off about INFJs?" This was meant to be a little cheeky, so I hope the INFJs don't take too much offense.

Okay, one of my best friends from college is an INFJ and work closely with an INFJ. I love them to death, but they do have a few teensy little flaws...

- They love giving unsolicited advice. They can be extremely, relentlessly nudgy. The fact that it's for your own good doesn't change this. As an INFP, I'm getting plenty of critique on what I should be doing internally, I don't need extra pressure from outside. k? thx!

- They apparently signed up for the alternative-medicine/belief-system buffet. One of them believes in reiki, homeopathy, colored light therapy, reincarnation, herbalism, etc. The other has been a fundamentalist Christian, a rainbow family hippie, a polyamory family member, a tarot card reader, etc. I wish I could believe in five impossible things before breakfast, but I'm just not so gifted. Believing a couple of impossible things in a lifetime seems like challenge enough for me.
.

This really reminded me of me and my INFP friend, only in reverse. He is ALWAYS giving advice, and often the advice is strongly connected to his New Age outlook. I think he fancies himself as a guru.
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
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Sep 22, 2009
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sx/so
This really reminded me of me and my INFP friend, only in reverse. He is ALWAYS giving advice, and often the advice is strongly connected to his New Age outlook. I think he fancies himself as a guru.

I think other reports are varied as to which of the two are more likely to give advice (or believe in alternative medicine or spirituality). I suspect NFP advice is more on the order of "go with what you believe is right and is consonant with who you are" and NFJs are a bit more likely to be a more ends-oriented (though in service of a worthy goal) and to give advice about leveraging social structures. I also think we tend to hear different things as pushy—Fi pushiness and Fe pushiness come across differently.

I suspect it was just coincidence that all three INFJs I know well turned out to be into alternative belief systems. As someone who isn't (pardon my bias here), I could see both NFPs and NFJs—two fairly idealistic types—being that way, but via slightly different means. Ni is given to seeing causal patterns in possibly unrelated data. Fi can be given to filtering conflicting (but potentially true) data out.

By the way, by "alternative belief systems" I'm referring to some of the loonier pseudosciences and conspiracy theories, and not just having a non-mainstream religious belief or practicing meditation.
 

Alchemilla

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Joined
Jan 5, 2011
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22
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INFJ
I think other reports are varied as to which of the two are more likely to give advice (or believe in alternative medicine or spirituality). I suspect NFP advice is more on the order of "go with what you believe is right and is consonant with who you are" and NFJs are a bit more likely to be a more ends-oriented (though in service of a worthy goal) and to give advice about leveraging social structures. I also think we tend to hear different things as pushy—Fi pushiness and Fe pushiness come across differently.

I suspect it was just coincidence that all three INFJs I know well turned out to be into alternative belief systems. As someone who isn't (pardon my bias here), I could see both NFPs and NFJs—two fairly idealistic types—being that way, but via slightly different means. Ni is given to seeing causal patterns in possibly unrelated data. Fi can be given to filtering conflicting (but potentially true) data out.

By the way, by "alternative belief systems" I'm referring to some of the loonier pseudosciences and conspiracy theories, and not just having a non-mainstream religious belief or practicing meditation.

Hehehe. Trust me, my friend is king of the loonies :)

That is an interesting point about the "go with what you believe" advice vs. focusing on achieving an end. I'm not sure where I would fit in with that, although my friend would tend to be more of a "go with what you believe so long as what you believe is what I believe."

This can be quite stressful as his beliefs are strong and far out.

My style of giving advice has been greatly shaped by my health condition, I'm sure. I'm disabled so more often than not I find myself the target of unwanted advice, well intentioned or otherwise (you might be amazed at how often the advising is a pure ego trip).
It can be very demoralizing. As a result I almost always assume the other person just wants me to listen, at least at first, and so that's what I tend to do. This could be a learned trait rather than a natural one: I do plan to write a series of self help books one day for the more skeptically minded sufferer, so it's not like I'm not driven in some way to advise.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2011
Messages
150
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Without offense, unhealthy INFPs often irritate me because, based upon the one's I've met in the past, they often vary in two forms:

a. The outwardly aloof, detached person who implodes all of his feelings inwardly and spends pretty much half their free time scorning the "conformist society" surrounding them and scoffing at you for not seeming individualistic enough. Said person is also prone to being very sensitive and aware of everything you've mentioned or said and will show their irritation at whatever you've mentioned through passive-aggressive actions that ultimately boil over and explode with an overflow of accusations of "how bad and hypocritical a person you are, because of blah, blah, blah...". It is also difficult to communicate with this type of person, because they often mask their emotions through an apathetic façade and refuse to express their concerns despite the fact that a volcanoes been waiting to erupt inside.

b. The hypersensitive, whiny person who likes to stress that they are "unique" and too much of an idealist for this horrible conformist society of corporate workers, scoffing at the idea of people working the routine "9-5 shift". They likely have some sort of an interest in the arts, be it writing, drawing, filmmaking, or whatever, and strive to project their "vision" through said work, pompously priding themselves on how different they are from everybody else, whom they see as "boring and contrived."

As an INFJ, I admit that I seem a bit stiffer and sensitive to outward influences that most of my INFP counterparts, who in a healthy state project a very whimsical, airy vibe as they explore different ideas with others and express their playful sense of humor, projecting a vibe that seems very easygoing and gentle, yet contains a stubbornness beneath the layers depending on what you've said and how what you've said has impacted them.

INFJs however seem to project more of the vibe of the typical confidant, the quiet, yet insightful and reflective person who'll try to mentor you through their problems with constructive advice and reassurance, but may need a bit of coaxing to reveal their more laidback spontaneous side, seeing as they often tend to be analyzing everything and trying to discern the meaning behind it in their heads.

I've also noted that I relate a lot more to INTPs and IxFJs than I do to most INFPs, who tend to frustrate me with their outwardly detached, aloof demeanors and inability to communicate things directly, which has led to many of my failed past friendships. Because they often don't communicate their feelings with others openly, and because I am so sensitive and quick to sense vibes of others, this tendency to withdraw from problems has led to many misconceptions and disagreements among myself and other INFPs, who've described me as seeming too high-strung and analytical, while I've accused them of seeming to dispassionate and uninvolved. INFPs seem more at ease with allowing issues to go unresolved and generally don't seem as willing as an INFJ might be to sit with you are upset to sort through your problems; rather, they seem more apt to listen quietly without interruption, yet might not always know the proper thing to say to comfort you.
 
L

LadyLazarus

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b. The hypersensitive, whiny person who likes to stress that they are "unique" and too much of an idealist for this horrible conformist society of corporate workers, scoffing at the idea of people working the routine "9-5 shift". They likely have some sort of an interest in the arts, be it writing, drawing, filmmaking, or whatever, and strive to project their "vision" through said work, pompously priding themselves on how different they are from everybody else, whom they see as "boring and contrived."

I'm not an INFP,but damn you got me good!
 

Werebudgie

I want my account deleted
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
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398
MBTI Type
INFJ
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6w5
Without offense, unhealthy INFPs often irritate me because, based upon the one's I've met in the past, they often vary in two forms:

a. The outwardly aloof, detached person who implodes all of his feelings inwardly and spends pretty much half their free time scorning the "conformist society" surrounding them and scoffing at you for not seeming individualistic enough. Said person is also prone to being very sensitive and aware of everything you've mentioned or said and will show their irritation at whatever you've mentioned through passive-aggressive actions that ultimately boil over and explode with an overflow of accusations of "how bad and hypocritical a person you are, because of blah, blah, blah...". It is also difficult to communicate with this type of person, because they often mask their emotions through an apathetic façade and refuse to express their concerns despite the fact that a volcanoes been waiting to erupt inside.

Wow ... you've come very close to describing my INFP enneagram 9w8 partner when things aren't well in her (when she's particularly unhealthy).

As an INFJ, I admit that I seem a bit stiffer and sensitive to outward influences that most of my INFP counterparts, who in a healthy state project a very whimsical, airy vibe as they explore different ideas with others and express their playful sense of humor, projecting a vibe that seems very easygoing and gentle, yet contains a stubbornness beneath the layers depending on what you've said and how what you've said has impacted them.

Yes, this is a more healthy version of my INFP (except she isn't "airy," she has a more grounded feel). And for sure I seem stiffer and more sensitive to outward influences.

...most INFPs, who tend to frustrate me with their outwardly detached, aloof demeanors and inability to communicate things directly, which has led to many of my failed past friendships. Because they often don't communicate their feelings with others openly, and because I am so sensitive and quick to sense vibes of others, this tendency to withdraw from problems has led to many misconceptions and disagreements among myself and other INFPs, who've described me as seeming too high-strung and analytical, while I've accused them of seeming to dispassionate and uninvolved. INFPs seem more at ease with allowing issues to go unresolved

I'm really struggling with this lately. In our case, I've assumed that my partner's tendency to withdraw from dealing with problems is as much an unhealthy enneagram 9 thing as it is an INFP thing.

However, one thing to keep in mind about INFJs and INFPs in interaction is this: INFJs and INFPs generally don't do well together in the "in-process" stage of figuring things out. We (our two types) often come to similar/the same conclusions from completely different angles. Trying to process through and solve problems together, in dialogue, can lead to serious and generally unnecessary stress and misunderstanding just as much as not dealing with them explicitly.

(I don't yet know what the solution is in my case, but starting to feel like something's got to give).
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
Without offense, unhealthy INFPs often irritate me because, based upon the one's I've met in the past

Have to say, fate has conspired you into being an instrument of synchronicity. I've left this forum ages ago, but apparently left some subscriptions alive. So, since you resurrected the dead thread, this mail hit me from the blue today as I happened to be delving into motivational/psychological issues myself, and that goes with all the intensification of meaning that you can imagine for a message that for no apparent reason just fits the moment too well and comes from a past left behind.

I have to think on this. Your criticism isn't unfounded. I see myself there.
 

Cloudpuppy

New member
Joined
Nov 18, 2011
Messages
10
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
A lot of great observations in this thread.

I have two very close INFJ friends. I also have a number of good INFP friends as comparison points. I'm not quite sure why there is confusion between the two types other than basic introversion; to me the Fe/Fi differences pop out quite quickly, unless the INFJ doesn't have as much Fe development and then the Ni can appear Fi-ish.



Interesting that you say this because yes I do see the INFJ like that but perhaps because of some sense of flaming impunity I have, those boundaries aren't "real" to me, more like markers of progression. I think this is maybe some type of Fe-Fe interaction and I'm not sure how to explain this, but it's the Fe way for relationships to follow some sort of linear path and to categorize the state of the relationship. Is this a date? Are we dating? OK, we're not acquaintances anymore, I can call you a friend and later on if things go well, you'll be a close friend, confidant, queue theme from Golden Girls. You're my coworker and I don't want to go there with you so I'll maintain a friendly distance.

I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job explaining this, but depending on the where and how the relationship is filed it requires a different sort of interaction. That filing may be interpreted as a boundary or at that particular stage of the relationship Fe uses the boundary as stopgate. That stopgate basically is either open or closed, it's not ever just ajar. If it's open, it'll stay an open border (Fe not able to detach). When it's closed, well it's just closed, no problem with attachment or detachment because it never was there to begin with. I think many people complain of this type of Fe being rather empty and superficial, but once again, it's not empty to me and when I get it back from other FJs it's not offensive or weird to me.

Personally, I appreciate those clearly marked areas. I look for them, I see them, I usually respect them (unless I don't, lol), and I expect them to be present. I think when you get beyond the superficials and all systems seem to be go but you're still feeling something is there, the boundary isn't real. I'm gonna have to break into the SAT words but to me, I perceive that boundary as a simulacrum. It's like when you're on a movie set and it seems like it's a brick wall in front of you but if you apply any sort of pressure to that brick wall you find it's really painted styrofoam. If this is Fe, it's basically Fe looking for proof that investment will be reciprocated. I don't want to speak for INFJs, but my Fe is very reciprocal and you need to be thoroughly investigated, researched, and vetted by reputable sources and until then it's very measured and tit for tat. That may sound cold to people, but I view it as a self-protective measure. I don't just see what happens or just try it out because something may develop.

I'm not going to feed into the Rare Bird INFJ that needs special handling. Getting close to an INFJ is not some big mystery. If you encounter a person who happens to be of the INFJ type and if they're making you climb mountains and swim through ocean trenches to get their hallowed friendship, move the hell on. With my INFJ friends, I didn't work extra hard to do anything. I think we clicked and I didn't find them to be particularly closed. We moved through that Fe path actually I see them being as brazen as possible to scare people off using that brazenness as a way to distinguish who will be a true friend and who won't.

OK, so about that stopgate. With the INFPs I know, (more NFPs than SFPs), I don't necessarily get the feeling of the stopgates and I know about the whole Fi value trouncing=saber tooth tiger and all (I'm not even quite sure what that means anymore but whatever) but the signs that I would typically look for as indicators of a deepening relationship aren't really consistent. After awhile of knowing the particular INFP you figure out what's what, but up till that point it's groping in the dark and often strikes me as being unfair and unnecessary, but I can see how to the INFP the signs I would understand would probably be interpreted as contrived.



Yes, I remember that and don't think you were being unreasonable at all. :) From my personal experience, I think it's important for an FJ to have another very close FJ friend (I find that ExFJ/IxFJ pairs work better than ExFJ/ExFJ not sure about IxFJ/IxFJ) because IME another FJ won't find the level of investing in each other to be extravagant, needy, clingy, or dependent and it's expressed in a way that that two FJs in question can understand and appreciate.

I started a thread awhile ago about FJ/FJ relationships and I'll just throw this in this thread since I've got a bunch of FJs here. I know this is going to seem very teenage-girlish but I think it's common for two FJs to click up very intensely. People call my INFJ friend and I Double and Trouble. We're inseparable even outside of work. I find that there are no boundaries between us, even when you want the safe haven of a boundary to hide beneath. And it's not even like we just sit around confirming each other's world view, there's honest feedback, i.e. "I don't think what you're doing is a good idea", "I don't think you're handling it in the right way," "I wouldn't have done that" and it does not come across as preachy or overbearing. I interpret this behavior as something a true friend does. To me, it feels like I'm never really far from her mind or thoughts so if I get a text asking me if I remembered my doctor's appointment or if I ask her did she update her resume yet to reflect a recent conversation we had, it doesn't feel claustrophobic, it feels caring.

When either of us is laying it on too thick with the other, we have little signals that lets the other know back off and we move on without a second thought given to the exchange. I enjoy the very high level EQ we have towards each other. I find it to be a very open, honest, sensitive, caring, and supportive friendship with minimal conflict and misunderstanding. I think that if I behaved the way I do with my INFJ friend and she with me towards other people, we'd quickly get labeled bossy but that is not the case between us. Neither one of us feels the need to put ourselves on mute and we like to talk about our friendship, it's like we meta-analyze our friendship to keep it running smoothly and we enjoy doing this; it doesn't feel like work. We know it looks strange to other people but the feeling of being able to say anything and be yourself completely with another (ugliness, bitchiness, and talons included) is so refreshing that I'm totally willing to talk the hell out of it to keep it going.

Unfortunately, I can't go into this level of detail about my INFP friends because we've never gone there with each other. The friendships don't seem to be on negotiated terms; there's no mutuality. It's either on or off and it's basically up to the INFP when it's going to be on. When they're there, everything is cool, we get along great, excellent EQ and sensitivity as well but otherwise: ????

Which is why this makes so much sense to me:


I have always had bittersweet relationships with INFPs. I really liked how [MENTION=60]proteanmix[/MENTION] put it. I also have a very close FJ friend and our friendship kinda reminds me how problematic relationships I have and had have with INFPs. It is whether on or off. And it's always up to them to decide when it's on..but when we're on, we really are ON. :) Other times it they can piss me off.
 

Werebudgie

I want my account deleted
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
398
MBTI Type
INFJ
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6w5
About the pattern (mentioned in a few places here) of INFJs feeling like we always have to do things on the INFP's terms ... I'm really struggling with this a lot right now. I find that when I can articulate things strongly and clearly to my INFP partner, I may be able to have a real say in the core dynamics of our interactions. But it takes me so long to figure out what "my terms" might be, and to find a way to articulate them clearly and without what she names as vagueness - it's like I can't keep up with the strength and powerful gravitational pull of her terms, which she seems to strongly project, without speaking them, almost effortlessly as a matter of simply moving through the world. The default is that I am and pretty much always have been constantly scrambling to adapt to her. As I try to adapt, her terms sort of shift and change and mutate as I am trying to figure out how to adapt. This whole situation keeps me subtly but powerfully off balance in a way that's becoming increasingly not-okay for me. I'm getting increasingly soul-tired from this process. At this point it almost sickens me sometimes, to feel so off-balance, like some aspect of my survival requires me to not keep being in this state of disorientation. But at this point I don't yet know how to get it to stop.
 
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