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  1. #51
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I agree that I've seen some flaky INFJ ideas. I'm curious what kinds of bandwagons you mean though. Can you give examples? I think we seem non-committal to large ideas because we need time to mull them over and fit them into the larger structure of our thinking (takes more time than details). We also just don't seem as good with surprises - I get my heart set on dumb little things and need a few minutes to adjust if it's not going to go that way.
    I think Seymour touched on the tendency to sign up for various causes and then abandon them once they find the holes in it. I wonder why they didn't consider it more carefully to begin with, but I suppose they just like to try ideas on.

    I realize that may be their process of finding external values which suit them (and that these may be immature people), but to an INFP, it can seem rather frivolous.

    I think this is an area in which you can tell INFJs are dominant perceivers. Supposedly, INFPs are less "organized", but that's only externally.
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  2. #52
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    So for example, if I wanna do something outside I'll say that, and if someone else is like "Let's ride horses outside", well I don't really like horses but yes that would be outside. So I'd respond with "umm, how about something that doesn't involve horses?" Is that an example of what people here are describing as only partial-flexibility and/or guiding people to what we really wanna do under the premise of being casual/laidback/open???
    Yeah, that's a decent example. I generally know exactly what the other person wants/prefers to do, so I don't see it as total flexibility, which to me would be anything goes, hey, I'm cool with whatever. So I read any little hints directing towards what the other person would prefer to do as being subtle pushes.

    Further, following this hiking example since it TOTALLY does apply to me: "Let's go hiking, Boulder is really nice, how do you feel aboutgoing hiking there today?" To me that does two things: 1)declares interest in hiking, and 2) demonstrates my interest level in Boulder. Now maybe the person I'm hiking with really hates Boulder and likes, say, Aurora. Well maybe there hate for Boulder and strong interest in Aurora will overweigh my little interest in Aurora and desire for Boulder??? We shall have to see, "So how not into Boulder are you and how into Aurora are you feeling?" I'd call that negotiation and sorting out interest levels of all parties involved. Would other people call that feigning flexibility or something, cuz I'm pushing for Boulder in that example?
    Yeah, I guess I tend not to 'negotiate' things like this. If there's such a huge element of negotiating or 'sorting out interest levels', the whole thing just becomes wearisome to me. I don't know, I suppose I'm just someone who, if one of my friends asks if I want to do something, and I don't, I say I'm not interested, and that's that, and if they invite me to do something I do like, then I'll go for it. And sometimes I am ambivalent, in which case I'll usually go ahead. Same goes on my end - I might ask someone to do something with me and if they don't, that's cool, I'll just go on and do it by myself. It seems too complicated otherwise. I'm not saying that's an INFJ thing in general though.

    What annoys me about INFJ's? Their walls. I see the pragmatic value, but don't like them. Also, following plans/expectations so much. Sorta along the lines of [how Scott perceives the INFJ's inner workings, I could totally be wrong though] "Hmmm self, I want to do this thing, but other people are expecting that thing. Well, I'll just keep this thing to myself and tell people that thing. Even though I'm really passionate about this thing, and think that thing is stupid and should be discontinued in practice. And I'll make sure to smile politely while doing that thing, thats what good hostess/teacher/whatever's do. God I hope someone will ask me about this, that way I can give my standard well-practiced spiel about how I'm so passionate about this thing and think that thing is stupid and antiquated. And I'll be sure to say "thank you for asking" because that would be the politer and socially acceptable way to start such a spiel." INFJ's feel free to tell me how wrong that description is. Maybe I've just met lots of INFJ yoga teachers. Well, I have met lots of INFJ yoga teachers.
    I think you over-emphasize following expectations, especially regarding INFJ's - we're a pretty independent lot. That said, yes of course we tend to approach situations tactfully. For myself, it's not because that's the 'social expectation' and that's what I 'should' be doing to get along with people, it's simply because I want to treat people with respect, even if I may not see eye to eye with them. That's the bottom line. No fakery there, and just because *I* might not jive with someone, doesn't mean they deserve me to treat them like I don't jive with them - because it's just me, just my little opinion/inclination, which means nothing in terms of how they might deserve to be treated.

    As for following plans, yes, if I have made a plan with someone, I can get annoyed if it changes, but usually it just takes a couple of minutes for me to re-adjust and I'm good to go.

    As to walls, and keeping things to myself. I see no purpose (yes, I have always noted the pragmatic current running through me) in letting everyone I encounter see every side of me. With most acquaintances/coworkers, it's simply not necessary. I sometimes view myself in terms of %'s. I might be able to relate 20% of my personality to one person, and the other 80% I might not have in common with them, or the other person would go and wouldn't relate to me. With another person, I might relate 65% to, or with another, 90%. And so on. Am I open to sharing other sides if the other person asks? Sure...but friendships have sometimes ended as a result of that....which is fine, of course...relationships are about mutual connection/interest. I try to seek commonalities with others, and the nature of the relationship will depend on how much of myself I can really make a connection with, with the other person. The higher the % - more levels of connection - the deeper the relationship will go. That might just be me.

    As for INFJ 'issues'/demons, I choose to reveal those when I trust the person enough, or when I want them to know. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether an opening occurred in a conversation 3 months prior -- I probably quite recognized the fact anyway that I could have divulged at that point, but I just didn't care to. Also, as Athenian pointed out, it's not like the 'issues' are a constant gaping wound within; much of the time we might be quite fine, and although we know of such and such issue, we're dealing with it quite fine on our own for a while. Something might cause it to bubble up, and then we might need to talk about it. I know for myself, though, I almost always want to try to figure out an issue on my own, without involving anyone else. Typically it's during a flareup, or when after months I haven't been able to figure it out on my own, that I'll talk to a trusted friend about it.
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  3. #53
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yeah I identify with all of that last post.

    And OA, I think you're right that we have a tendancy to do this. INFPs in my experience are very neatly organized internally. I think more than finding holes with the cause it's holes in the implementation of it it or the organization itself that makes us feel restless and decide to change. It is not always readily apparent that there is such a gulf until you get your hands a little dirty or get close enough to look that others have assumed you're in.

    (Having said that, I've never identified with the excessively outer limits spiritual INFJ types. But I know I have done that as far as organization which initially seem like they would be good, or else I haven't known how to get out of something before being cohearsed into agreeing completely. I think INFJs do this in a lot of other senses, which is why issues continue coming up after other types thought they were closed. Sometimes an INFJ agrees to a solution that they haven't had time to properly mull over because they don't want to create waves, but upon further reflection they just can't find a way to make it work...)

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post

    About other people not being devastated by INFJ's issues/demons/skeletons/stuff, I think that it is a very REALISTIC assessment that the world keeps turning and that most people aren't super-duper concerned about INFJ whatevers. I'm not trying to trivialize INFJ's "stuff", just trying to point out that its not nearly as critical to others as it is to you. You all aren't the center of the world, really. Nor am I for that matter. There are 6billion+ people on this world, most social interactions aren't that deep, most people don't care about other people all that much. The world won't stop and wait on baited breath because some INFJ [or anyone else for that matter] is having a personal issue.
    That is exactly the reason why I will keep most emotional stuff that is going on in me to myself and try to sort it out on my own, because I expect other people not to care that much. If I tell you about my emotional issues then you are probably a very trusted friend and have earned my openness by having been caring and kind in the past.

    I also tend to be very careful about what I share with other people because things that seem trivial to others are very important to me and I have a strong emotional bond with certain things. For example my favourite album ever is Tori Amos' "Boys for Pele", I have loved it since I bought it in 1996 and the whole CD is like an old friend to me. But since I know that people tend to have a hate-love relationship with Tori Amos' music I will not play this album just to anyone, someone just casually ripping it apart without understanding the deep meaning it has to me would really hurt me. The same goes for favourite movies etc, I normally connect to them on a deep emotional level, they express part of who I am so I won't share these things with someone unless I deem them tactful and "worthy" because by slating these things you would also in a way slate me. (Not sure how INFJ typical this attitude is.)

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post

    I think you over-emphasize following expectations, especially regarding INFJ's - we're a pretty independent lot. That said, yes of course we tend to approach situations tactfully. For myself, it's not because that's the 'social expectation' and that's what I 'should' be doing to get along with people, it's simply because I want to treat people with respect, even if I may not see eye to eye with them. That's the bottom line. No fakery there, and just because *I* might not jive with someone, doesn't mean they deserve me to treat them like I don't jive with them - because it's just me, just my little opinion/inclination, which means nothing in terms of how they might deserve to be treated.

    As to walls, and keeping things to myself. I see no purpose (yes, I have always noted the pragmatic current running through me) in letting everyone I encounter see every side of me. With most acquaintances/coworkers, it's simply not necessary. I sometimes view myself in terms of %'s. I might be able to relate 20% of my personality to one person, and the other 80% I might not have in common with them, or the other person would go and wouldn't relate to me. With another person, I might relate 65% to, or with another, 90%. And so on. Am I open to sharing other sides if the other person asks? Sure...but friendships have sometimes ended as a result of that....which is fine, of course.
    Totally agree. I will in general try to get along with people even if they are not my cup of tea, everyone deserves a basic amount of respect even if you will never turn into my best friend. That doesn't mean that I am hypocritical, I hold strong beliefs on the inside and will most likely share them if someone is truly interested to hear about them, I am just not big on confrontation and unnecessary conflict.

  5. #55
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post
    I also tend to be very careful about what I share with other people because things that seem trivial to others are very important to me and I have a strong emotional bond with certain things. For example my favourite album ever is Tori Amos' "Boys for Pele", I have loved it since I bought it in 1996 and the whole CD is like an old friend to me. But since I know that people tend to have a hate-love relationship with Tori Amos' music I will not play this album just to anyone, someone just casually ripping it apart without understanding the deep meaning it has to me would really hurt me. The same goes for favourite movies etc, I normally connect to them on a deep emotional level, they express part of who I am so I won't share these things with someone unless I deem them tactful and "worthy" because by slating these things you would also in a way slate me. (Not sure how INFJ typical this attitude is.)
    Yes, I think I can relate to this. Just the other day someone looked at some of my photos and was like, 'Pffpf, what rubbish (jokingly used that word, but I'll keep it in for accuracy ), there weren't any pics of YOU! I went there to see pics of you, not nature photos I could find off of google images!'. I didn't exactly take offense, as I knew what he meant, but I was like...dude..you just dissed ME when you dissed my boring nature photos!! I go out hiking and love being out in nature, and I love capturing these images of what I see with my own eyes. I don't care if you could do a google image search, these are pictures *I* took, and it's really important to me!

    I'm sure I could think of other examples, like your music/cd one, but I totally hear what you're saying. There's a lot in the 'WHY's' as to why I like or don't like something, or think one way vs. another, it is rarely a superficial reason, even if the thing in and of itself could be labeled superficial/trivial.
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  6. #56
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Yeah, I guess I tend not to 'negotiate' things like this. If there's such a huge element of negotiating or 'sorting out interest levels', the whole thing just becomes wearisome to me. I don't know, I suppose I'm just someone who, if one of my friends asks if I want to do something, and I don't, I say I'm not interested, and that's that, and if they invite me to do something I do like, then I'll go for it. And sometimes I am ambivalent, in which case I'll usually go ahead. Same goes on my end - I might ask someone to do something with me and if they don't, that's cool, I'll just go on and do it by myself. It seems too complicated otherwise. I'm not saying that's an INFJ thing in general though.
    I definitely relate to this. I try for the least complicated social interactions. I also am uncomfortable imposing myself on others.
    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think you over-emphasize following expectations, especially regarding INFJ's - we're a pretty independent lot. That said, yes of course we tend to approach situations tactfully. For myself, it's not because that's the 'social expectation' and that's what I 'should' be doing to get along with people, it's simply because I want to treat people with respect, even if I may not see eye to eye with them. That's the bottom line. No fakery there, and just because *I* might not jive with someone, doesn't mean they deserve me to treat them like I don't jive with them - because it's just me, just my little opinion/inclination, which means nothing in terms of how they might deserve to be treated.
    Can definitely relate. It has to do with looking at the big picture. My own opinions and desires are one element in a larger picture in which everyone has a presence. There is a way to respect people's personal boundaries in which you see their value as intrinsic and worthy of being treated with respect regardless of how they differ in ideas or behavior. There are of course times I could get upset with someone. Typically when someone makes me feel like they are crossing a line, I just minimize my reactions. I recently picked up my car from a garage and they were conspicuously defensive about the price they were charging even though I in no way was protesting it. I think they charged me for twice the labor. There wasn't anything I could really say or do to challenge it, so I was quiet but polite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott N Denver View Post
    About other people not being devastated by INFJ's issues/demons/skeletons/stuff, I think that it is a very REALISTIC assessment that the world keeps turning and that most people aren't super-duper concerned about INFJ whatevers. I'm not trying to trivialize INFJ's "stuff", just trying to point out that its not nearly as critical to others as it is to you. You all aren't the center of the world, really. Nor am I for that matter. There are 6billion+ people on this world, most social interactions aren't that deep, most people don't care about other people all that much. The world won't stop and wait on baited breath because some INFJ [or anyone else for that matter] is having a personal issue.
    First of all, you do know that you can just edit your post next time you think of more to add, no need to post 3 times in a row heh.

    I'm not sure what exactly the point of this post is? Who the fuck cares whether our internal struggles matter to anyone else?! They matter to us, and that's all that matters. We never asked anyone else to give a damn about them. So who are you to sit here and talk like that? To me it's very clear that you are a little bitter that you were not let into one in particular INFJ's internal struggles, and are now projecting like this. Very transparent and very childish.

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    A lot of great observations in this thread.

    I have two very close INFJ friends. I also have a number of good INFP friends as comparison points. I'm not quite sure why there is confusion between the two types other than basic introversion; to me the Fe/Fi differences pop out quite quickly, unless the INFJ doesn't have as much Fe development and then the Ni can appear Fi-ish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What I notice is that INFP seems more "flexy open." They are more obviously tender-hearted in a "raw" sense (I don't know how to explain it better). Any walls I run across in exploring/interacting with them are "fuzzy walls," if that makes sense, I can poke and prod a bit and sense some give there and get a feel for what might be in it because of how the wall flexes around that hidden knowledge.

    With my INFJ friends, there's just a veneer of control and a cordial wall / way of doing things around them. They are very kind but read "cooler" to me than the INFP counterpart. I also feel like certain areas of knowledge are very blocked off while others are very open. The walls are much more firm and I only get access to a hidden area if they come right out and tell me what's there.

    I'm more careful with most of my INFJ friends because I don't either want to run into a wall and hurt myself or else go completely into an undesired location and have them shut me out. With my INFP friends, I feel I have more leeway -- they have a playful, fuzzy way of flexing around me if I intrude too far by accident, and they might give a bit or throw me something to see what I'll do with it. INFJ seems far less prone to do that, even if I put myself out there first; the decision has usually been made up front about what information I will be allowed access to. INFJ feels more engimatic to me, I usually can grasp what lies underneath in my INFP friends more easily.
    Interesting that you say this because yes I do see the INFJ like that but perhaps because of some sense of flaming impunity I have, those boundaries aren't "real" to me, more like markers of progression. I think this is maybe some type of Fe-Fe interaction and I'm not sure how to explain this, but it's the Fe way for relationships to follow some sort of linear path and to categorize the state of the relationship. Is this a date? Are we dating? OK, we're not acquaintances anymore, I can call you a friend and later on if things go well, you'll be a close friend, confidant, queue theme from Golden Girls. You're my coworker and I don't want to go there with you so I'll maintain a friendly distance.

    I'm not sure if I'm doing a good job explaining this, but depending on the where and how the relationship is filed it requires a different sort of interaction. That filing may be interpreted as a boundary or at that particular stage of the relationship Fe uses the boundary as stopgate. That stopgate basically is either open or closed, it's not ever just ajar. If it's open, it'll stay an open border (Fe not able to detach). When it's closed, well it's just closed, no problem with attachment or detachment because it never was there to begin with. I think many people complain of this type of Fe being rather empty and superficial, but once again, it's not empty to me and when I get it back from other FJs it's not offensive or weird to me.

    Personally, I appreciate those clearly marked areas. I look for them, I see them, I usually respect them (unless I don't, lol), and I expect them to be present. I think when you get beyond the superficials and all systems seem to be go but you're still feeling something is there, the boundary isn't real. I'm gonna have to break into the SAT words but to me, I perceive that boundary as a simulacrum. It's like when you're on a movie set and it seems like it's a brick wall in front of you but if you apply any sort of pressure to that brick wall you find it's really painted styrofoam. If this is Fe, it's basically Fe looking for proof that investment will be reciprocated. I don't want to speak for INFJs, but my Fe is very reciprocal and you need to be thoroughly investigated, researched, and vetted by reputable sources and until then it's very measured and tit for tat. That may sound cold to people, but I view it as a self-protective measure. I don't just see what happens or just try it out because something may develop.

    I'm not going to feed into the Rare Bird INFJ that needs special handling. Getting close to an INFJ is not some big mystery. If you encounter a person who happens to be of the INFJ type and if they're making you climb mountains and swim through ocean trenches to get their hallowed friendship, move the hell on. With my INFJ friends, I didn't work extra hard to do anything. I think we clicked and I didn't find them to be particularly closed. We moved through that Fe path actually I see them being as brazen as possible to scare people off using that brazenness as a way to distinguish who will be a true friend and who won't.

    OK, so about that stopgate. With the INFPs I know, (more NFPs than SFPs), I don't necessarily get the feeling of the stopgates and I know about the whole Fi value trouncing=saber tooth tiger and all (I'm not even quite sure what that means anymore but whatever) but the signs that I would typically look for as indicators of a deepening relationship aren't really consistent. After awhile of knowing the particular INFP you figure out what's what, but up till that point it's groping in the dark and often strikes me as being unfair and unnecessary, but I can see how to the INFP the signs I would understand would probably be interpreted as contrived.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lightyear View Post

    I wrote this about a (former) INFP friend of mine a few months ago in this thread: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...s-related.html Though I think my friend was behaving like an unhealthy INFP it might shed light on some INFP/INFJ head-butting issues.

    I remember that this thread started a whole discussion about how I am being too demanding of my friend by expecting her to behave in certain ways (my Fe I suppose) while I am thinking that one can expect basic things from friends else they are nothing more than acquaintances and in order to deepen a relationship the two parties have to invest in each other, giving of oneself, one's time etc else they are always going to be swimming in the shallow end of friendship.
    Yes, I remember that and don't think you were being unreasonable at all. From my personal experience, I think it's important for an FJ to have another very close FJ friend (I find that ExFJ/IxFJ pairs work better than ExFJ/ExFJ not sure about IxFJ/IxFJ) because IME another FJ won't find the level of investing in each other to be extravagant, needy, clingy, or dependent and it's expressed in a way that that two FJs in question can understand and appreciate.

    I started a thread awhile ago about FJ/FJ relationships and I'll just throw this in this thread since I've got a bunch of FJs here. I know this is going to seem very teenage-girlish but I think it's common for two FJs to click up very intensely. People call my INFJ friend and I Double and Trouble. We're inseparable even outside of work. I find that there are no boundaries between us, even when you want the safe haven of a boundary to hide beneath. And it's not even like we just sit around confirming each other's world view, there's honest feedback, i.e. "I don't think what you're doing is a good idea", "I don't think you're handling it in the right way," "I wouldn't have done that" and it does not come across as preachy or overbearing. I interpret this behavior as something a true friend does. To me, it feels like I'm never really far from her mind or thoughts so if I get a text asking me if I remembered my doctor's appointment or if I ask her did she update her resume yet to reflect a recent conversation we had, it doesn't feel claustrophobic, it feels caring.

    When either of us is laying it on too thick with the other, we have little signals that lets the other know back off and we move on without a second thought given to the exchange. I enjoy the very high level EQ we have towards each other. I find it to be a very open, honest, sensitive, caring, and supportive friendship with minimal conflict and misunderstanding. I think that if I behaved the way I do with my INFJ friend and she with me towards other people, we'd quickly get labeled bossy but that is not the case between us. Neither one of us feels the need to put ourselves on mute and we like to talk about our friendship, it's like we meta-analyze our friendship to keep it running smoothly and we enjoy doing this; it doesn't feel like work. We know it looks strange to other people but the feeling of being able to say anything and be yourself completely with another (ugliness, bitchiness, and talons included) is so refreshing that I'm totally willing to talk the hell out of it to keep it going.

    Unfortunately, I can't go into this level of detail about my INFP friends because we've never gone there with each other. The friendships don't seem to be on negotiated terms; there's no mutuality. It's either on or off and it's basically up to the INFP when it's going to be on. When they're there, everything is cool, we get along great, excellent EQ and sensitivity as well but otherwise: ????

    Which is why this makes so much sense to me:

    Quote Originally Posted by matilda View Post
    INFJ: I really need you.
    INFP: I'm really really down today as well. Bad day bad day bad day. I'm sorry but I can't right now. I need to be alone.
    INFJ: Well you know what? If you were in my position.. I'd be there in a heartbeat.
    INFP: I know, I'm sorry. I just can't. Not today.
    INFJ: Just don't count on me helping you out when you're the one who needs me.
    INFP: ...
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #59
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yep, I feel you on all of that. My mum and I are a great ENFJ/INFJ pair. I wish I could find same with a friend my age because it's an unusual kind of friendship but very mutually beneficial and comfortable.

    I think that's it for me with INFP friendships - I just don't know where I'm at and I'm not sure what the signs are when I am in. For me, it seems like my signs are quite clear (even though I know that NFPs don't always feel that way), so I think Protean's analysis of that is something that I can identify with. It seems to me that INFP friendships are always more on their terms. It's not that it's bad, because we have a fun time together and everything. It's just that I don't know that I could really count on them consistently or that things between us are as I perceive them. When they are going through something, they just disappear and I'm not sure how to help them or even where to find them in a sense. I think I'm relatively perceptive and a good listener and make a point of not offering very much advice to them, but still...

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think that's it for me with INFP friendships - I just don't know where I'm at and I'm not sure what the signs are when I am in. For me, it seems like my signs are quite clear (even though I know that NFPs don't always feel that way), so I think Protean's analysis of that is something that I can identify with. It seems to me that INFP friendships are always more on their terms. It's not that it's bad, because we have a fun time together and everything. It's just that I don't know that I could really count on them consistently or that things between us are as I perceive them. When they are going through something, they just disappear and I'm not sure how to help them or even where to find them in a sense. I think I'm relatively perceptive and a good listener and make a point of not offering very much advice to them, but still...
    Interesting. I admit, you got me there. I don't know how you could "know where you are" with me. In fact, I don't know myself how I should send the signals, or what these signals are. I disappear, yeah, I don't answer the phone, or I call back after two days, I know it looks weird. Maybe I am selfish. It just seems impossible for me to be always there for people.

    I have to sleep on this. The signal thing is especially puzzling.

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