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  1. #151
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    Answers/musings behind the spoiler:

    Yes, it does. This makes sense to me.

    This may sound a little rough, so I apologize in advance if it does. Or unfinished...it is my way to toss things out there and do the refining out of my head.

    I'm very close to an INFJ young lady. I see her doing something like what you describe (if I'm reading this close enough). She will shift in order to fit. It's not usually anything radical but it frequently happens. I mean shifting for external harmony or common ground. For her, it may mean 'abandoning' a position for the sake of harmony with me or her brothers. From her perspective, it's rough (she's the only Fe-user in her close circle) because she feels like she's doing something for us. From my perspective, it's irritating because I never asked her to do this and now I feel like I'm supposed to be grateful for something I never asked for. And it can give a slippy feel. I do not understand her need to find agreement/external harmony before we can proceed in a discussion of things. To me, even the assumption that this should be done raises some hackles. You saying "her terms and grounds" sounds very much like this. And you're right, it's natural to her but she's not going to see it like that...I have a hard time with it...but maybe you do because the issue is not being met on "our grounds and terms"? Are you saying you're feeling resentment because you feel like you're doing something for her, for your relationship and she can't even bother to do the same? Or even acknowledge that it's going on? That's what it seems like I'm hearing but I could be wrong about it.

    At the same time, I understand the exhaustion that can result from this. As an Ne-dom, I often feel a strong pull to "respond". Nobody is asking me, but it's just my natural way of being as an ENFP. I can feel exhausted and put upon because of this and place the blame on others instead of just ignoring the (mainly unspoken) pleas, wants, and needs of others. It wasn't the other person(s), it was me not being able to deal with the anxiety of not responding and my own identification with being a responsive person to those I'm close to. But I stopped that mess. It's good boundary making and necessary in a healthy relationship. It kinda sounds like this is part of the problem and if something's not done, it's not going to end well. Resentment will eat through any bond. FLD mentioned this in his post.

    Your INFP may be more understanding of you not responding in the manner that you have...hell, she may not even notice that you're doing what you see yourself doing because Fi doesn't work that way at all.

    Do you have an examples of how you would prefer your relationship to be?

  2. #152
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    Thank you for the reply, Redbone. I understand that you're tossing things out there and doing the refining out of your head.

    So. I'm actually not saying I'm:

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    feeling resentment because you feel like you're doing something for her, for your relationship and she can't even bother to do the same? Or even acknowledge that it's going on? That's what it seems like I'm hearing but I could be wrong about it.
    I don't feel resentment and I don't feel like I'm doing something for her. The way I see it, resentment and the rest of what you describe is is located at the emotional narrative layer, which to my perception lives kind of at the surface of things (if that makes sense). This current gut sense that something's not right for me in the dynamic I describe is a far more visceral response - a body-level Ni-Se visceral response that operates in me much like sense perception operates. For me it's not about how I feel she or I should be in this relationship. I don't feel put upon or anything like that, and I don't feel like by adapting I have done something that she should reciprocate or at least acknowledge or be grateful for. And I don't have an identification/identity around myself as a responsive person.

    And we've already hashed through the layer of Fe-aux/Fi-dom differences you refer to. I feel like whatever I'm sensing, experiencing and tracking here goes deeper than what you describe (though to be clear, I appreciate you attending and thinking out loud as you have!). But this is probably me in the phase where my gut sense/visceral perception doesn't yet have conscious articulation and I'm kind of rooting around or something at the conceptual/conscious level. Or maybe I already know, below words but more clearly, but am not going to commit verbally to what I know because I want to see more visible data first, now that I have some deep visceral sense of what to attend to and what to shift.

    ----------------------------

    And @FLD: thank you. What you say about giving Ni-doms space to work it out for ourselves is true, at least for me. It's an odd combination of seeking dialogue plus space, and I would imagine not easy to recognize. Thank you for your comments and your good wishes.

  3. #153
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werebudgie View Post
    I don't feel resentment and I don't feel like I'm doing something for her. The way I see it, resentment and the rest of what you describe is is located at the emotional narrative layer, which to my perception lives kind of at the surface of things (if that makes sense). This current gut sense that something's not right for me in the dynamic I describe is a far more visceral response - a body-level Ni-Se visceral response that operates in me much like sense perception operates. For me it's not about how I feel she or I should be in this relationship. I don't feel put upon or anything like that, and I don't feel like by adapting I have done something that she should reciprocate or at least acknowledge or be grateful for. And I don't have an identification/identity around myself as a responsive person.

    But this is probably me in the phase where my gut sense/visceral perception doesn't yet have conscious articulation and I'm kind of rooting around or something at the conceptual/conscious level. Or maybe I already know, below words but more clearly, but am not going to commit verbally to what I know because I want to see more visible data first, now that I have some deep visceral sense of what to attend to and what to shift.
    Ah, okay. I see. Ha...out of my depth with Ni/Se here! This isn't something I don't understand well at all but see it in my INFJ. It doesn't seem to be a process that can be hurried.

    I appreciate you answering my question! I hope things can work out.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Hinastarr's Avatar
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    Warning: In crafting the post below, I am not accusing anyone on this thread of having done or posted anything wrong, nor am I trying to offer a personal attack toward either INFPs or INFJs. I am simply stressing a long held opinion over something that has truly irritated me regarding people using the MBTI system to find their true selves and relate to others.

    Okay... that being said, here I go.

    Honestly, it doesn't matter if the person claims to be either INFP or INFJ- it really depends on the individual's actual personality. Classifying yourself as an mbti type does not mean that you are a part of an exclusive club that somehow distinguishes you from the rest, but rather serves as a tool to better explain who you are as a person based upon particular interaction patterns or ways of viewing the world. I don't enjoy assuming all INFPs are "sensitive, melodramatic idealists who scoff at the rest of their corporate, consumer world", nor do I enjoy thinking of all INFJs as being neurotic psychoanalysts who think they know a person based upon a certain vibe, before truly getting to know them (and I say this as an INFJ myself). People are people, and they will be whoever they want to be. Some people are healthier or kinder than others, some are egocentric assholes who can't identify with any perspective beyond their own.

    I have met both types of INFPs- the quiet, empathetic listeners who make great friends and truly listen to you with an open ear and never rush to make judgments or reach assumptions over people; and the truly irritating self-absorbed "artists" who think the world is out to get them and interpret any form of remark or criticism as an attack against their identity, often accusing you of things that were never even there and rushing to end friendships after the first disagreement, once they believe you simply don't fit in properly within their idealistic inner world. I am sure there are many other forms of the INFP person out there beyond these as well, as even the types of people mentioned above may serve as "black or white" stereotypes of the typical "rosy, optimistic" INFP against the dark, brooding type 4 INFP. Heck, some INFPs can even surprise you with an uncanny logical side that may lead you to mistaken them for an INTP (although this might deviate from the point I'm trying to make).

    People vary in different forms, whether they happen to belong to the same MBTI type or not, and even if you've met one hypersensitive INFP who drove you nuts with their mood swings, or one INFJ who seemed too judgmental or single-minded for your taste, one can't automatically assume that the two types will never be able to relate to the other and form a lasting friendship. Both types have their strengths and weakness and perceive their world in altering ways, but so long as similar values and opinions are held beneath said differences and both types are genuinely good, well-meaning people, there is no reason to fear wanting to initiate a bond between the two or stereotype either type into a biased mold that doesn't even reflect who the individual truly is. I respect INFPs for their incredible depth of empathy and emotion and how self-assured they seem with their own identities, just as I respect INFJs for their intuitiveness and ability grasp meanings quickly, motivating themselves resolutely with their ideals and insights.

  5. #155
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    A problem with INFX's is that they can be quite passive-aggressive, and can't describe each other's flaws without saying 'but I still love you' at the end. :P

    I kid, I kid.
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  6. #156
    Senior Member Hinastarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    A problem with INFX's is that they can be quite passive-aggressive, and can't describe each other's flaws without saying 'but I still love you' at the end. :P

    I kid, I kid.
    I don't blame you for feeling this way, as I myself might've demonstrated some of these passive-aggressive tendencies to a lesser extent in the past. It's perplexing in a way when you wish to avoid conflict and try your best to prevent yourself from appearing hostile or even belligerent towards other people, yet feel as though you might explode unless you allow some of the negative feelings you've been bottling up inside to unwind in the most subtle ways. I feel this is particularly a point of confliction for INFJs enneagram 4 or 6, as their auxiliary Fe tends to want to maintain peace and concensus throughout their environment and is sensitive to tension among others, while the 4's desire for individuality, depth of emotion, and exclusion from others can lead to their nonetheless expressing their anger or discomfort in very subtle ways as they further isolate themselves from others and refuse to express what is going on, almost (from my personal experience) anticipating for the other person to be the one to approach them and experience guilt over whatever harm or offense they inflicited upon them. I can guarantee that it's not healthy.

    In a similar way, I feel enneagram 6 (especially 6w5) can exhibit many of these same tendencies, yet are often prone to being more reactive and easier to trigger during times of conflict. Enneagram 4 wants to feel special and seeks a deep connection that almost makes them feel particular or exclusive toward said person, and is more likely to beat themselves up from the inside out as their self-esteem falters and they carry everyone's weight on their shoulders (although the passive-aggression you mentioned may also be some sort sort of indirect mechanism to silently inform others that they are hurt and in need of comfort, in order to garner concern and attention from others); enneagram 6 however may or may not frequently feel like a mess of nerves as they struggle to predict the circumstances to which they are being exposed and drive themselves crazy with excessive analysis of the situation, which causes them to seem passive-aggressive in a more direct mannerism than does enneagram 4 (perhaps by expressing verbal sarcasm or seeming unresponsive and laconic unless they are responding toward another person's questions or conversations with snide, hostile remarks).

    Conflict disturbs the 6's vision of what it means to feel safe, so they may naturally be more predisposed than perhaps enneagram 4 to act somewhat more aggressively as a form of impulse, since this may be the sole way they can actually verbalize the frustration they are truly feeling over the lack of control they are experiencing throughout said situation and confusion over what has gone wrong among themselves and the other person involved. While enneagram 4 relies on itself for the answers as it tries to craft its own sense of meaning and authentic identity, the may be more prone to seeming passive aggressive through increasing isolation from others as they brood in a corner and anticipate the approach of the persn who will lift up their spirits and celebrate their uniqueness, which the 6 is almost instincitvely ambivalent toward toward authority and hesistant to trust what seems unfamiliar, possibly making them more likely to openly express episodes of anger and blame an outside source, or perhaps even the surrounding world, for the feelings that lie beyond their control, scrutinizing others for seeming incompetent in maintaing the stability the seek from their environment and finding quick offense once the trust the once confided onto another person has been broken in some way (hence the infamous INFJ "door slam").

    I didn't mean to make this a debate over enneagram types, but I just felt as though maybe this might answer your question as to why INFJs seem so passive-aggressive at times regarding certain types of conflict or misunderstanding . I might eventually create a post involving INFPs as well, since I considered myself to be one not so long ago and do still share many similarities with the type.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I've noticed a number of INFPs express that they find INFJs difficult to be friends with. I have ended up knowing/being friends with a lot of INFPs, but also can see where some of our differences are more glaring than one might think at first. On here, I find I get along very well with a lot of INFPs and have had interesting/useful conversations in better understanding them.

    Where do you find those areas of contention lie? What do you find hardest to understand about the other type?

    Obviously Fi/Fe is a problem for many...
    I'm personally an INFP, and there is one thing I've noticed when reading posts about people disliking INFPs. Most people don't seem to be able to tell the difference between dysfunction due to other causes, and what is caused by the INFP personality itself.

    Example: I used to be very much the way a lot of people in here describe their worst INFP friends...thing was, I grew up in an abusive and dysfunctional household, my parents grew up in the same, and so on for generations. I learned to be passive aggressive because I was taught that being assertive would be penalized by my abusers. I wasn't passive aggressive because I was INFP, but instead because my parents learned to be passive aggressive, their parents learned to be passive aggressive, the basic cycle of abuse. All those bad habits were passed down to me, because they were the only ones my parents knew, hence the only ones I knew. And neither of my parents are INFP to my knowledge, and they don't understand a lot of my creative side really as a result as well. (That was just a side note lol.)

    Anyhow, a lot of the negative traits I see attributed to INFPs could just as easily be attributed to experiencing what I experienced growing up, a dysfunctional home life. It took tons of therapy, for me to adjust and learn to be assertive.

    1.) I don't have a problem with criticism if it's constructive. I have been working off and on, on a Graphic Arts degree, regular classroom critiques of your art will get you used to criticism fast lol. I do have a problem with people who name call, who assume that they know what i mean and lash out at me for assuming when I wasn't (this has happened to me before lol.), and well, if you can't tell me why I suck, it's not going to be much use to me and I won't have the information I need to improve myself, so that's really your loss in the end.

    2.) I am not a door mat. It does take a lot to make me angry and I love to help others, sometimes I overdo it. But treat me badly, and show me that you're toxic to my life, and I will disconnect and you will never see me again. I have to take care of me, some people must be shut out for my own sanity. Yes, i hate rejection and I do tend to take it personally, but I won't let fear of rejection stop me from what I need to do for me. The thing is, I'm aware that I take what others say personally at times, and that awareness leaves me usually wise to whether the problem is me or them, or maybe both of us. That said, unstable and dysfunctional INFPs are probably some of the more dangerous people to anger, having grown up in a physically abusive family, you can imagine some of the stuff I did before I learned better and learned to let go of the anger inside me, and learned better self-control.

    3.) My belief system is far from rigid. I was raised Mormon and after about 10 years of careful study and consideration, I finally decided it wasn't for me, and had them remove my name from their church rolls. Honestly, I don't care if your religion is right or wrong tho, that is true, as an INFP I don't care so much about being right or wrong, so long as it's right for me, I'm happy. And the way I consider it, everyone has different needs in this world, one can't expect a One Size Fits All for everything and everyone, because humanity is much to diverse to readily accept that.

    4.) I am skeptical, I also tend to enjoy an eclectic belief system, but I test everything out first, to see if it works for me, if it makes me happy and satisfied with life. If it doesn't, i toss it. Again, the whole One Size Doesn't Always Fit All. I have a healthy dose of skepticism especially with Metaphysical stuff that I like to research, especially after I tested out fortune telling with friends and discovered I could deduce a lot of what to say, based on their body language lol.

    5.) As for anti-social, it took experts in my teens teaching me a course of Social Skills for me to learn how to be better socially. I'm still not great at it, probably because I am a bit of a loner, but it hasn't stopped me from leading groups in online games effectively, I just need me time. Thing is, one of the things that course taught me, was if you ask someone about themselves, you can get them talking usually, because everyone likes to talk about themselves. I've found it to be very much true.

    6.) I do have a funny bone, and I'm not cold. In fact, I've found that being silly and using humor can actually get people interacting around me, and I've taken advantage of that.

    7.) Yes I do suffer from depression sometimes, but that's not a bad thing, any more than being happy is a bad emotion. It's just quite simply an emotion, period. It's only when I ignore and neglect myself when I'm depressed that it becomes dangerous.

    8.) Fact: I'm actually pretty good at problem solving on my own. Yes, INFPs tend to rant a lot, but there's actually a logical reason for that. If I don't vent off all that emotion clouding my thoughts and making me anxious, there is absolutely no way I can calm down to logically think up a solution. My ranting doesn't mean, however, that I need the problem solved for me, or that I want answers. If I want suggestions, i will ask for them, otherwise, please, just let me rant til I feel calmer. And truth of the matter, I usually find my answers in the very rants you probably just hated having to listen to lol.

    None of this though came naturally for me, especially given the home environment that I grew up in. And yes, I do still have my dysfunctional moments, but the important than is I am aware and take responsibility for them when they happen. There's far more that goes into making an INFP into who they are tho, than just the letters INFP, and I think a lot of people fail to realize that, and that does bothers me, I'm afraid. Because being passive aggressive for example, I don't feel is a trait of INFP, I feel it's a learned behavior. Someone, somewhere, in their life, probably made it feel unsafe for them to be anything but passive aggressive.

    9.) And finally I don't have a problem with debating with others, I actually like debating. Where I have a problem is when the neutral debate turns into an argument with the other party trying to force me to conform to their views. Honest debate isn't about making people conform, but broadening your own horizons, I feel.

    I think perhaps from what comments I've read from those who identify themselves as INFJ is that too often they fall into that, my way is the only way mindset, and I left that mindset behind when I left organized religion. I want to learn and experiment, I want to question, and I mean question everything. If that makes me happy, then I'm all good with it, but my life isn't about making your life happy or satisfying your need to be right, it's about me and satisfying my needs. If that comes across as selfish, I'm sorry, but there comes a time when out of self-preservation, everyone needs to be selfish at times.

    Not entirely sure that answered your question, but hoping it did to some degree. =D
    Last edited by YukariOro; 04-24-2014 at 08:19 AM. Reason: because I always think of something else to add later lol

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